Texas @ Michigan plays (Video)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not once the shooter is airborne.

Fair enough. However I don't see what the defender did wrong here. Back pedaling with the offensive player initiating all the contact. I don't see myself calling this a foul on the defense. Play on.

[johnny d]

The defender was not just backpedaling. If he was, there would not have been any contact. The defender is moving laterally (at least 3 feet to his left) and backwards, and he is doing so after the offensive player has gone airborne. Easy foul on the defense.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SC Official

For NCAAM folks...

Is this a primary or secondary defender? I know the rule says that in an outnumbering fastbreak that all defenders are "initially" secondary; but when do primary defenders begin to exist, so to speak, on a fastbreak?

Not sure if that has anything to do with this play, but just curious.

Some of this you know but i think it helps to see it all...

Secondary defenders are players who come to help after another defender, primary, is beaten. A player coming to double the low post is also considered a secondary defender.

Secondary defenders cannot set up in the RA to attempt TO TAKE a charge or a "push" foul. They can jump to try to block a shot or pass. If they are in the RA and try to take a charge etc it is an automatic block.

In outnumbering fast break situations, say a 2 on 1 or even a 3 on 2, all defenders are considered secondary. They cannot try to take charge etc in the RA. When the fast break is over, say they pull the ball out, or shoot it other rules kick back in. After a rebound there are NO secondary defenders IF the rebounder makes an immediate move the the basket. Everybody is primary so the RA restriction isn't relevant.

If the ball is pulled out we go back to regular rules. a primary defender is guarding a player and a secondary player is one who comes to help after primary beaten. I havnt seen interps on arbiter etc but this is how i interp it.

If the fast break is 2 on 2 then the defender guarding the ball is primary. if offense comes at him and he sets up in RA and takes charge he is ok. He is primary. it was not an outnumbering break. If defender beats him and the remaining defender slides over, he is a secondary defender and RA rules apply.

[Raymond]

The foul, after the travel, would be for B1 coming down with his right arm. If that arm had stayed vertical, I would have nothing.

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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The foul, after the travel, would be for B1 coming down with his right arm. If that arm had stayed vertical, I would have nothing.

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He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor, jumped off it and landed REALLYYY close to simultaneously…but not simultaneously so i think your correct on the travel. I would not have called that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor, jumped off it and landed REALLYYY close to simultaneously…but not simultaneously so i think your correct on the travel. I would not have called that.

Philosophy wise I would not call that a travel. I think that is took close in live speed. But I was wondering when someone was going to point that out on the video. I was wondering the same thing after I slowed it down.

Peace

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The foul, after the travel, would be for B1 coming down with his right arm. If that arm had stayed vertical, I would have nothing.

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It took me watching it twice with the last slo-mo finally revealing the contact on the arm (is this is good time to stress the importance of angles?). Agree completely with you BNR.

Other thing that occurred to me is, if we're reffing the defense with this one, we're looking for LGP, if the defense did anything that would negate LGP, and verticality. Usually seeing the arm(s) drop is a good indication, if there's contact, the defender is responsible for it.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

You are a primary defender once you establish LGP. Which on an outnumbered fastbreak cannot be done in the RA. This defender for all intensive purposes is a primary defender.

However even if he were secondary the RA restriction does not apply if the defender maintains verticality and jumps to make a play to defend the shot. They MUST be airborne and vertical for the RA restriction to not apply to them.

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The foul, after the travel, would be for B1 coming down with his right arm.

I see that too but didn't see it initially.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SC Official

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

I'd have to look again but i thought it looked like a 2 on 2 break. There are players behind but 2 on 2 essentially to me. Not outnumbering fast break. So the player who fouled, is guarding the player with the ball initially. If he had set up in the RA and taken a charge regular block charge rules apply. RA isn't factor. he is a primary defender.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

If a player jumps and maintains verticality then the RA restriction does not apply and a player control foul can be called.

Originally Posted by BigCat

In outnumbering fast break situations, say a 2 on 1 or even a 3 on 2, all defenders are considered secondary. They cannot try to take charge etc in the RA. When the fast break is over, say they pull the ball out, or shoot it other rules kick back in. After a rebound there are NO secondary defenders IF the rebounder makes an immediate move the the basket. Everybody is primary so the RA restriction isn't relevant.

This is incorrect as all players are initially secondary, they can become primary and can take a charge anywhere. They cannot become primary within the RA. There is a case play that illustrates this, I just don't have my book on me. The example is 3 on 2 break where the ball handler takes the ball all the way and one of the 2 defenders committing to the ball handler above the 3 point arc (although where doesn't matter as long as its not RA). That defender is the primary and even if the contact initiates within the RA as long as LGP was maintained its a PC foul.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

If a player jumps and maintains verticality then the RA restriction does not apply and a player control foul can be called.

Yes, but my question was addressing this player in the video. He's a primary defender who can back into the RA and take a charge, right?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Yes, but my question was addressing this player in the video. He's a primary defender who can back into the RA and take a charge, right?

Yes he can. The RA only applies to secondary defenders in a block charge situation on a play to score. If a guy is just dribbling around RA doesn't apply.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is incorrect as all players are initially secondary, they can become primary and can take a charge anywhere. They cannot become primary within the RA. There is a case play that illustrates this, I just don't have my book on me. The example is 3 on 2 break where the ball handler takes the ball all the way and one of the 2 defenders committing to the ball handler above the 3 point arc (although where doesn't matter as long as its not RA). That defender is the primary and even if the contact initiates within the RA as long as LGP was maintained its a PC foul.

Correct. I also think there was a clarification sent out specifically addressing this earlier in the season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'd have to look again but i thought it looked like a 2 on 2 break. There are players behind but 2 on 2 essentially to me. Not outnumbering fast break. So the player who fouled, is guarding the player with the ball initially. If he had set up in the RA and taken a charge regular block charge rules apply. RA isn't factor. he is a primary defender.

There are only two defenders back, they are outnumbers. If all the other players just watched, maybe you have a point there. But not being outnumbered from my understanding is when all 5 defenders are back. Then each defender has a man potentially. This still fits the rule. But again the rule only applies when a player is on the floor. When the player jumps up in the air, they are treated like any other place on the floor.

Peace