Texas @ Michigan plays (Video)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are only two defenders back, they are outnumbers. If all the other players just watched, maybe you have a point there. But not being outnumbered from my understanding is when all 5 defenders are back. Then each defender has a man potentially. This still fits the rule. But again the rule only applies when a player is on the floor. When the player jumps up in the air, they are treated like any other place on the floor.

Peace

As a player, coach and referee that is not an outnumbered fast break. 2 defensive players back, 2 offensive players at point of attack. Behind them is an offensive and defensive player. I would tell my point guard to look as he is going up floor and if he can slow down and let players on each side fill the wings we may be able to turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 2.

Here we have 2 defensive players back and 2 offensive players heading to the rim. That's a fast break. The other players are trailing close to each other. If there was an offensive player trailing the play and no defense around you could say it is a 3 on 2. That's not the case here.
You can have an "even" fast break as opposed to an "outnumbered" one without having all 5 players back. Look at the play and how many offense and defense are there on the break.

I guess i should add that i dont get the interps from arbiter etc. maybe that is what they have said.
I do agree that all this isnt a factor in this play because defender is not trying to take charge etc. he can jump to block shot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

As a player, coach and referee that is not an outnumbered fast break. 2 defensive players back, 2 offensive players at point of attack. Behind them is an offensive and defensive player. I would tell my point guard to look as he is going up floor and if he can slow down and let players on each side fill the wings we may be able to turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 2.

Here we have 2 defensive players back and 2 offensive players heading to the rim. That's a fast break. The other players are trailing close to each other. If there was an offensive player trailing the play and no defense around you could say it is a 3 on 2. That's not the case here.
You can have an "even" fast break as opposed to an "outnumbered" one without having all 5 players back. Look at the play and how many offense and defense are there on the break.

I do agree that all this isnt a factor in this play because defender is not trying to take charge etc. he can jump to block shot.

I am not talking as a player or coach. That is the interpretation from the rules committee or the Supervisor of Officials. This has been addressed in the NCAA video the last couple of years.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not talking as a player or coach. That is the interpretation from the rules committee or the Supervisor of Officials. This has been addressed in the NCAA video the last couple of years.

Peace

Yes, i edited because i dont get the videos. However, you will never ever convince me that to have an "even" fast break all 5 defenders have to be back. That's just silly.

This was a 2 on 2 fast break.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Yes, i edited because i dont get the videos. However, you will never ever convince me that to have an "even" fast break all 5 defenders have to be back. That's just silly.

This was a 2 on 2 fast break.

I am not trying to convince you, I am telling you how the rule is applied. Coaches, players and fans all speak different languages than officials. So nothing is new here.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not trying to convince you, I am telling you how the rule is applied. Coaches, players and fans all speak different languages than officials. So nothing is new here.

Peace

So, unless 5 defenders are back there can be no "even" fast break? Without 5 defenders back we always have an "outnumbered" fast break situation? That ignores what a fast break is. I've seen stranger things i suppose but that doesnt make any sense to me. Outnumbered to me means 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. If its 1 on 1, that's even. If its 2 on 2 that's even. If its 4 on 3 that's odd. If its 4 on 4 that's even....

I dont see 5 back as a requirement.

If the defense gets 5 back it's no longer a fast break...

[JRutledge]

I am just telling you what was stated in some videos. Maybe there is an A.R. That makes this clearer as well. There is nothing that defines what you said that is is not an outnumbered break. There are two Michigan players ahead, but right behind them are the other Michigan players and some Texas players trailing.

At 7 seconds in the video I posted, there was 5 Michigan players in the picture and only 4 Texas players in the picture. One Texas player was trailing all players on this break.

Here is an example of the play at different times.


Peace

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=JRutledge;994382]I am just telling you what was stated in some videos. Maybe there is an A.R. That makes this clearer as well. There is nothing that defines what you said that is is not an outnumbered break. There are two Michigan players ahead, but right behind them are the other Michigan players and some Texas players trailing.

At 7 seconds in the video I posted, there was 5 Michigan players in the picture and only 4 Texas players in the picture. One Texas player was trailing all players on this break.

Here is an example of the play at different times.


Peace

Again, I haven't seen the videos from NCAA. I'm pretty confident though that we can have an "even" fast break without all 5 people back. Again, when I think of outnumbered fast break I'm not looking in the backcourt. I'm looking at who's where as we approach the basket. That's basketball. This play is 2 on 2 when we talk about an even or odd fast break.

[johnny d]

A little later in the video, there is a point where all 5 Michigan players are in the frontcourt against only 4 Texas players. Granted, 3 of the Michigan players are behind the ball handler, but I would still consider it an outnumbered fast break by NCAA-M guidelines.

[APG]

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by APG

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

Yes, we all agree about the shot blocking aspect. I'm trying to figure out where and when do we look to decide what is "outnumbered." As I said, I don't see the videos so I'm probably wrong.

In this play because we have 2 defenders back and 2 pushing the play I'd think this was "even". If we had another Michigan player right behind them with no one else around I'd certainly think of him a the 3rd making it 3 on 2.

I see what Jeff means when he shows me the video but i consider those people trailing not really part of the fast break. They may be part of some secondary break but i see this as 2 on 2. Anyway, i need to find the videos. Thx

[Raymond]

Based on the case book, it's any outnumbering fast break, regardless if it is defense or offense that has more players.

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING 1: The official is incorrect. In any outnumbering fast break situation, all Team B players are initially secondary defenders. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul.

2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Based on the case book, it's any outnumbering fast break, regardless if it is defense or offense that has more players.

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING 1: The official is incorrect. In any outnumbering fast break situation, all Team B players are initially secondary defenders. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul.

2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

Yeah i was aware of that play. depending on where, when and how many players you include, you can say even or odd just about any time. If we view the entire floor to make the decision it's likely odd every time…. i think i may just call everything odd and say don't set up initially in the arc.

Jeff, do you have any examples of "even" under the guidelines?

[deecee]

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by APG

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

Clearly a foul IMO.

Is there a 2nd video that I'm missing?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

Yes, I know initially is important and i had left that out a few pages ago. Now, I was looking at what is considered an "even" fast break. In outnumbered situations all are secondary defenders, initially, and cannot establish initial LGP in the RA.

If we call it an "even" fast break then regular rules apply. in this video, lets say number 4 is back and instead of trying to block the shot he sets up to take a charge and the first place (initial) he establishes LGP is in the RA. If we call it "even" numbered fast break he is ok because he isn't a secondary defender.

If we call this "outnumbered" --block because he established LGP initially in the RA.