NCAAM 10-second violation application...

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

What about jump ball?


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Possession. Control is word used in rules. Reset when team controls a rebound or team controls a jump ball or team control changes. During throwin shot clock starts on touch.

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I don't believe that is correct. Most clocks that I have seen that show tenths of a second, if you look at the time on the game clock that is displayed to everyone in the facility before you have less than a minute remaining, when it shows seven minutes and 59 seconds remaining, and you look at the display on the timekeepers console, it may say that there is seven minutes and 59.6 seconds, or whatever. I think that is the point the original poster is trying to make.

That's true on game clocks that will show tenths of seconds when under a minute. Non-NBA shot clocks do not have that luxury, so they are programmed to display what I said earlier. Otherwise, there could not be an immediate horn when the shot clock goes to zero.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Drizzle

That's true on game clocks that will show tenths of seconds when under a minute. Non-NBA shot clocks do not have that luxury, so they are programmed to display what I said earlier. Otherwise, there could not be an immediate horn when the shot clock goes to zero.

Are they programmed differently than game clocks?

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

Are they programmed differently than game clocks?

Yes.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Drizzle

Yes.

Perfect. Thanks.

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

When the clock first turns to 20, it's actually at 20.9.....

.....which works because when the clock shows 30 it is actually 30.9.

This is a non-issue.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

.....which works because when the clock shows 30 it is actually 30.9.

This is a non-issue.

Not really because the clock - on a reset - would go to 30.0.

However...as was said in response to the OP, the violation takes place when the shot-clock reads :20 (on a possession that begins at :30).

Here's the rule in a nutshell: Take what's on the shot-clock when a throw-in takes place in the backcourt after a made FG, foul, violation (other than OOB) or time out and subtract 10. That's when the violation occurs.

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Not really because the clock - on a reset - would go to 30.0.

However...as was said in response to the OP, the violation takes place when the shot-clock reads :20 (on a possession that begins at :30).

Here's the rule in a nutshell: Take what's on the shot-clock when a throw-in takes place in the backcourt after a made FG, foul, violation (other than OOB) or time out and subtract 10. That's when the violation occurs.

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And, while a team has the full ten seconds when the shotclock starts at 30, they might have a slight bit less when the shotclock is at, say 25 after a TO request (and we will use 15 as the marker).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

Are they programmed differently than game clocks?

When a GAME clock shows 25, there is really 25.0 - 25.9 on the clock (most modern clocks; there are still some around that work like shot clocks). That's why on a clock without 1/10s, the clock shows zero a second before the horn sounds.

When a SHOT clock shows 25, there is really 24.1 - 25.0 on the clock. That's why the horn sounds instantly when the clock hits zero.

And, I don't think (most) consoles show 1/10s for the shot clock; many do for the game clock (even if the scoreboard doesn't).

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

When a GAME clock shows 25, there is really 25.0 - 25.9 on the clock (most modern clocks; there are still some around that work like shot clocks). That's why on a clock without 1/10s, the clock shows zero a second before the horn sounds.

When a SHOT clock shows 25, there is really 24.1 - 25.0 on the clock. That's why the horn sounds instantly when the clock hits zero.

And, I don't think (most) consoles show 1/10s for the shot clock; many do for the game clock (even if the scoreboard doesn't).

Got it. I've never worked with a shot clock, but this makes total sense and is exactly the answer I was hoping to get.

[La Rikardo]

This is also why they wait for 15 in the NBA. Since the last five seconds use tenths, then the ones digit for the final second will show 0 (with that tenths digit) and so the shot clock goes to 23 (imagine a tenths digit following that number) immediately when it starts. Without using tenths at the end of the shot clock, as in NCAA, it makes more sense for the number shown in the final second to be 1, so the clock doesn't drop from 30 to 29 until a second has elapsed following the clock starting.

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[BoomerSooner]

Out of curiosity, is it possible that the shot clock and the 10 second count don't align if a defender tips the inbound pass? As has been established, the shot clock starts upon being touched by any player, however per 9.3, "The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in that team's backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball."

My gut tells me the counts would start simultaneously in this case and that the wording of the rule is a little ambiguous. "A player" could refer to either team, but the phrase "that team's backcourt" could refer to the backcourt of the player that touched the ball or the backcourt of the team on which the count is being made. As a non-NCAA guy, I'd love the clarification.

The other question I have is whether a visible count is still appropriate at any time by NCAA rule. In researching the rules for the above commentary, I noted that 2.9 indicates the shot clock should be used to administer the 10-second backcourt count unless there is no shot clock visible. I guess my concern is that between teams playing at this high of a level, you could have situations where the backcourt count doesn't start with the shot clock at 30 seconds and it may be difficult for the covering official to check the shot clock. If the ball is deflected into the backcourt by a defender and retrieved without pressure, the T can glance up and determine the clock has XX seconds remaining when the ball was touched by the offense in the backcourt. If the defense is tightly pressing, the covering official might not be able to immediately glace up to the shot-clock. Would a visible 10-second be appropriate in that case? Would it be incumbent on the lead to check the shot clock so the T&C could focus on the action in the backcourt?

[JRutledge]

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

Out of curiosity, is it possible that the shot clock and the 10 second count don't align if a defender tips the inbound pass? As has been established, the shot clock starts upon being touched by any player, however per 9.3, "The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in that team's backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball."

My gut tells me the counts would start simultaneously in this case and that the wording of the rule is a little ambiguous. "A player" could refer to either team, but the phrase "that team's backcourt" could refer to the backcourt of the player that touched the ball or the backcourt of the team on which the count is being made. As a non-NCAA guy, I'd love the clarification.

The other question I have is whether a visible count is still appropriate at any time by NCAA rule. In researching the rules for the above commentary, I noted that 2.9 indicates the shot clock should be used to administer the 10-second backcourt count unless there is no shot clock visible. I guess my concern is that between teams playing at this high of a level, you could have situations where the backcourt count doesn't start with the shot clock at 30 seconds and it may be difficult for the covering official to check the shot clock. If the ball is deflected into the backcourt by a defender and retrieved without pressure, the T can glance up and determine the clock has XX seconds remaining when the ball was touched by the offense in the backcourt. If the defense is tightly pressing, the covering official might not be able to immediately glace up to the shot-clock. Would a visible 10-second be appropriate in that case? Would it be incumbent on the lead to check the shot clock so the T&C could focus on the action in the backcourt?

Any official can call a 10-second violation. I did it from the C this season.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?