NCAAM 10-second violation application...

[BoomerSooner]

Out of curiosity, is it possible that the shot clock and the 10 second count don't align if a defender tips the inbound pass? As has been established, the shot clock starts upon being touched by any player, however per 9.3, "The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in that team's backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball."

My gut tells me the counts would start simultaneously in this case and that the wording of the rule is a little ambiguous. "A player" could refer to either team, but the phrase "that team's backcourt" could refer to the backcourt of the player that touched the ball or the backcourt of the team on which the count is being made. As a non-NCAA guy, I'd love the clarification.

The other question I have is whether a visible count is still appropriate at any time by NCAA rule. In researching the rules for the above commentary, I noted that 2.9 indicates the shot clock should be used to administer the 10-second backcourt count unless there is no shot clock visible. I guess my concern is that between teams playing at this high of a level, you could have situations where the backcourt count doesn't start with the shot clock at 30 seconds and it may be difficult for the covering official to check the shot clock. If the ball is deflected into the backcourt by a defender and retrieved without pressure, the T can glance up and determine the clock has XX seconds remaining when the ball was touched by the offense in the backcourt. If the defense is tightly pressing, the covering official might not be able to immediately glace up to the shot-clock. Would a visible 10-second be appropriate in that case? Would it be incumbent on the lead to check the shot clock so the T&C could focus on the action in the backcourt?

[JRutledge]

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

When the ball is legally touched in-bounds on a throw-in. When the ball is possessed after a try. When Team Control changes on a steal or turnover.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

When the ball is legally touched in-bounds on a throw-in. When the ball is possessed after a try. When Team Control changes on a steal or turnover.

This is what I assumed and what makes sense to me, however my confusion stems from the following situation that I can't reconcile. A1 inbounds the ball from baseline of his frontcourt following a foul that caused the shot clock to be reset. A1 passes toward the backcourt and B1 while in (a) A's frontcourt or (b) A's backcourt deflects it over A2's head into the backcourt where it is retreived by A2. She shot clock properly starts when B1 deflects the pass. When does the 10-second count start in situations a and b.

Please don't take this as being argumentative or difficult. I trust you guys know what you are talking about, but I'm struggling with how the rule is written. The issue for me is that the NCAA rules define when the 10-second count begins, whereas the NFHS rules simply require team control of a ball in the backcourt and doesn't dictate when the count begins.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

This is what I assumed and what makes sense to me, however my confusion stems from the following situation that I can't reconcile. A1 inbounds the ball from baseline of his frontcourt following a foul that caused the shot clock to be reset. A1 passes toward the backcourt and B1 while in (a) A's frontcourt or (b) A's backcourt deflects it over A2's head into the backcourt where it is retreived by A2. She shot clock properly starts when B1 deflects the pass. When does the 10-second count start in situations a and b.

Please don't take this as being argumentative or difficult. I trust you guys know what you are talking about, but I'm struggling with how the rule is written. The issue for me is that the NCAA rules define when the 10-second count begins, whereas the NFHS rules simply require team control of a ball in the backcourt and doesn't dictate when the count begins.

A. When it is touched/retrieved by A2, 10 count begins. That is first touch by player in BC.

B. When it is deflected by B. That is first touch in A's BC.

[BoomerSooner]

So in A the 10-second count shouldn't start until A touches the ball in the backcourt in NCAA, but in NFHS it should start once the ball touches the backcourt (team "control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt")?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

This is what I assumed and what makes sense to me, however my confusion stems from the following situation that I can't reconcile. A1 inbounds the ball from baseline of his frontcourt following a foul that caused the shot clock to be reset. A1 passes toward the backcourt and B1 while in (a) A's frontcourt or (b) A's backcourt deflects it over A2's head into the backcourt where it is retreived by A2. She shot clock properly starts when B1 deflects the pass. When does the 10-second count start in situations a and b.

Please don't take this as being argumentative or difficult. I trust you guys know what you are talking about, but I'm struggling with how the rule is written. The issue for me is that the NCAA rules define when the 10-second count begins, whereas the NFHS rules simply require team control of a ball in the backcourt and doesn't dictate when the count begins.

That is a situation that needs to be pre-gamed. The shot clock would start immediately and the 10-second count would start when the ball gains BC status. I'm sure the defensive HC would be jumping up and down at the 20-second mark.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

When it was deflected by B. Also, a visible count is used only when shot clock is off. Lead may well have the best look at times. Anybody can get it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

He changed the play to a FC throwin by A, touched by B in A's FC and retrieved by A2 in A's BC. The shot clock starts when the ball is touched by B. The 10 count will not start until the ball is touched in the BC.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

He changed the play to a FC throwin by A, touched by B in A's FC and retrieved by A2 in A's BC. The shot clock starts when the ball is touched by B. The 10 count will not start until the ball is touched in the BC.

My response was to his comments to me. Nothing had changed at that time.

Peace

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

I get the violation occurs when the clock reads 20 if the shot clock and the 10-second count start simultaneously. When I stated "I get that and am on board with that", I was referring to the shot clock starting when the ball is legally touched by any player. That is pretty much a no exceptions point that I get.

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time. The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get the violation occurs when the clock reads 20 if the shot clock and the 10-second count start simultaneously. When I stated "I get that and am on board with that", I was referring to the shot clock starting when the ball is legally touched by any player. That is pretty much a no exceptions point that I get.

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time. The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

Your getting things complicated by changing the play back and forth. Also, forget team control for the moment.

1. A throw in from A's backcourt is tipped by B1 in A's BC. The shot clock and the -10 second count for A starts on Bs touch. A player legally touched the ball in A's BC. When the clock hits 20-violation. Even if seconds went by before A actually touched ball. Do you have that down?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time.

It does in college. That is all you need to know.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

Again the college rule is different. If the ball starts in the FC and goes to the BC, you have a different issue don't you think? You would not be using the shot clock and it reading 20 as the standard now would you?

We can either count with our arm like we always did or note the time on the clock when the violation would take place.

Peace