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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 11:02am
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
OK, let's look at this another way. This wasn't a 1+1 situation as described in BillyMac's case reference regarding incorrect instructions from an official on a 1+1 - not even remotely close.

1. Per the OP's situation as described, A1 was awarded 2 free throws.

2. Per 7-2-a, the ball becomes dead when it is apparent that a free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw. It's automatically dead - there is nothing that requires an official's whistle.

3. Now let's look at 5-1: A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.

As the ball was immediately dead after A1's miss on the first FT attempt per 7-2-a, B1 can't possibly score because it is not a goal per 5-1.

The correct ruling is to disallow/cancel the "goal" by B1 and line everyone up for A1's 2nd attempt.
The ball is dead when the FT is missed and is supposed to remain dead until the ball at disposal for next free throw. However, when everyone screws up, doesn't recognize that fact and lets play continue…that IS the correctable error. Play went on, clock started, basket made…. "points scored, consumed time and additional activity…prior to recognition of error SHALL NOT be NULLIFIED. 2-10-5

B basket counts. A gets its FT with no one on lane and ball for end line throw in.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
OK, let's look at this another way. This wasn't a 1+1 situation as described in BillyMac's case reference regarding incorrect instructions from an official on a 1+1 - not even remotely close.

1. Per the OP's situation as described, A1 was awarded 2 free throws.

2. Per 7-2-a, the ball becomes dead when it is apparent that a free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw. It's automatically dead - there is nothing that requires an official's whistle.

3. Now let's look at 5-1: A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.

As the ball was immediately dead after A1's miss on the first FT attempt per 7-2-a, B1 can't possibly score because it is not a goal per 5-1.

The correct ruling is to disallow/cancel the "goal" by B1 and line everyone up for A1's 2nd attempt.
Clever, but by this reasoning, if they played for five minutes, both scoring multiple times, we would still go back and erase everything because the ball was dead. I don't think that is what the rules intend. In the OP, regardless of what was announced, the players played and the officials let them play. Precisely what correctable error rules are fol.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 11:24am
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
The rule book lays out how to handle not awarding a merited free throw, and that doesn't include canceling the score by Team B.

In fact, and I don't have my rule book handy, I believe it says something like "everything that happens before the error is found, including scoring, is not cancelled."
That only applies to any ensuing action after the ball becomes live subsequent to a correctable error.

Read the OP - break it into a sequence:
1. A1 is awarded 2 free throws
2. After the first free throw, B1 rebounds the ball and goes to the other end and scores.

Now look at the applicable rules:
1. By rule, the ball becomes immediately dead when it is clear the first free throw attempt will be unsuccessful if a second attempt is to follow.
2. By rule, a goal can only be scored when the ball is live.

Finally, review the rules on how a ball can become live, and tell us how a ball that is dead by rule after the first FT is missed suddenly becomes live again so B1 could take it down court and score. Please provide a rule citation.

The only way the ball would remain live after the miss on the first attempt is if the officials erroneously indicated only one free throw, and there is absolutely nothing in the OP to support that.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 11:30am
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
That only applies to any ensuing action after the ball becomes live subsequent to a correctable error.

Read the OP - break it into a sequence:
1. A1 is awarded 2 free throws
2. After the first free throw, B1 rebounds the ball and goes to the other end and scores.

Now look at the applicable rules:
1. By rule, the ball becomes immediately dead when it is clear the first free throw attempt will be unsuccessful if a second attempt is to follow.
2. By rule, a goal can only be scored when the ball is live.

Finally, review the rules on how a ball can become live, and tell us how a ball that is dead by rule after the first FT is missed suddenly becomes live again so B1 could take it down court and score. Please provide a rule citation.

The only way the ball would remain live after the miss on the first attempt is if the officials erroneously indicated only one free throw, and there is absolutely nothing in the OP to support that.
It doesn't matter what the official indicates. The fact is the player was supposed to get 2 shots and didn't. Call it whatever you want---ball comes back to life..etc. When the officials, scorer, timer etc all screw up and play goes on that is the error. They did not give the player his second FT.

2-10-5. consumed time, points scored etc is not nullified. read the rule and the case plays.

Tim, If we follow your argument …the ball is dead after the first FT and remains dead, then how would it ever be alive again? Play could go on for another 2 quarters…but the ball was dead after the first FT. Your argument renders the portion of the rule which says the error must be recognized during the first dead ball after the clock has started meaningless. A shoots the first FT, officials let play continue, clock starts…but your analysis says the ball is still dead. The ball is supposed to be dead or remain dead after the first FT but when it doesn't that is the error.

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 11:45am.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The ball is dead when the FT is missed and is supposed to remain dead until the ball at disposal for next free throw. However, when everyone screws up, doesn't recognize that fact and lets play continue…that IS the correctable error. Play went on, clock started, basket made…. "points scored, consumed time and additional activity…prior to recognition of error SHALL NOT be NULLIFIED. 2-10-5

B basket counts. A gets its FT with no one on lane and ball for end line throw in.
Please re-read the OP - this was an immediate sequence of events. Play didn't continue. B1 grabbed a ball that was dead by rule and ran down court to score. The situation was recognized immediately before the ball would have become live at the disposal of A.

Please review the rule on how a ball can become live and provide a rule citation how the dead ball on the miss suddenly became live so B1 could score.

The only way would be if the officials erroneously indicated only 1 free throw when there should have been two, and there is absolutely nothing in the OP to support this.
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Last edited by TimTaylor; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 11:42am.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
Please re-read the OP - this was an immediate sequence of events. Play didn't continue. B1 grabbed a ball that was dead by rule and ran down court to score. The situation was recognized immediately before the ball would have become live at the disposal of A.

Please review the rule on how a ball can become live and provide a rule citation how the dead ball on the miss suddenly became live so B1 could score.

The only way would be if the officials erroneously indicated only 1 free throw when there should have been two, and there is absolutely nothing in the OP to support this.
Play didn't continue? B got the rebound, clock started…B dribbled to the other end and scored. You also say "the situation was recognized immediately before the ball would have become live at the disposal of A." If the ball was dead and remained dead after the first FT, even though the players continued on, clock started..How would the ball become live when at the disposal of A? Under your thinking B shot a dead ball into the basket…why would it become live when at A's disposal?

When the play involves failure to award a merited Ft and the officials allow play to continue, clock to run…they are treating the ball as live. B dribbling down to the other end is a live ball..clock started. When B makes the basket…that is the first dead ball after the clock started. When the ball is at As disposal it is live again... too late to correct the error.

If everything goes according to plan the ball is dead after the first FT but when there is a screwup and they don't treat the ball as dead the rules change. The language the official chooses, one shot or two, doesn't affect the situation. If the player is supposed to get two and doesn't…play goes on…that is the error and the ball is treated as live.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:09pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Tim, If we follow your argument …the ball is dead after the first FT and remains dead, then how would it ever be alive again? Play could go on for another 2 quarters…but the ball was dead after the first FT. Your argument renders the portion of the rule which says the error must be recognized during the first dead ball after the clock has started meaningless. A shoots the first FT, officials let play continue, clock starts…but your analysis says the ball is still dead. The ball is supposed to be dead or remain dead after the first FT but when it doesn't that is the error.
Not true - see the rule on how a ball can become live.

Did the clock start? nothing in the OP says it did....even if it did, the clock starting does not make the ball live.

Again, please provide a rule citation on how the dead ball on the miss suddenly became live so B1 could run down court and score.

The correctable error rule specifies how, when and what you may correct when play has resumed before a correctable error is recognized. That's not the situation in the OP - play never resumed.
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Last edited by TimTaylor; Wed Feb 17, 2016 at 12:13pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:11pm
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
Not clear - the OP states "A1 is awarded 2 free throws", and there is nothing in the post to imply they announced only 1, so without information to the contrary we have to assume they announced it correctly.
See 2.10.1G where "erroneously the ball is allowed to remain in play." That sounds a lot like the OP.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:18pm
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
Not true - see the rule on how a ball can become live.

Did the clock start? nothing in the OP says it did....even if it did, the clock starting does not make the ball live.

Again, please provide a rule citation on how the dead ball on the miss suddenly became live so B1 could run down court and score.

The correctable error rule specifies how, when and what you may correct when play has resumed before a correctable error is recognized. That's not the situation in the OP - play never resumed.
Well Tim, I am assuming the clock started and others played and the officials allowed play to continue. The question is about correctable errors. If everybody knows and recognizes there is another FT to come…and B1 gets rebound, dribbles, to the other end and shoots it…we would be talking about a technical foul.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:39pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
...... If everybody knows and recognizes there is another FT to come…and B1 gets rebound, dribbles, to the other end and shoots it…we would be talking about a technical foul.
From the OP it sounds to me like that's exactly what happened. " After the first freethrow, B1 rebounds the ball and goes to the other end and scores."

Don't think I'd go with a T - just consider it a brain fart on the part of B1, disregard his "goal" and proceed with A1's 2nd FT.

Now if he went to the other end and dunked the ball, we might have a T for dunking a dead ball.....
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:41pm
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Tim sounds an awful lot like another member of this forum that was too stubborn to listen to veteran officials tell him he was wrong over, and over, and over...

I can't remember that guy's name.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:44pm
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
From the OP it sounds to me like that's exactly what happened. " After the first freethrow, B1 rebounds the ball and goes to the other end and scores."

Don't think I'd go with a T - just consider it a brain fart on the part of B1, disregard his "goal" and proceed with A1's 2nd FT.

Now if he went to the other end and dunked the ball, we might have a T for dunking a dead ball.....
Tim,
That's not what the OP meant. He was asking about a correctable error. If officials know and recognize there's another FT they would have blown whistle when B started dribbling. Had they recognized it they wouldn't have allowed him to dribble all the way down the court and shoot.

And.. if I blew my whistle after a FT and a kid continued on down the floor and didn't stop there would certainly be a T.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 12:58pm
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
From the OP it sounds to me like that's exactly what happened. " After the first freethrow, B1 rebounds the ball and goes to the other end and scores."

Don't think I'd go with a T - just consider it a brain fart on the part of B1, disregard his "goal" and proceed with A1's 2nd FT.

Now if he went to the other end and dunked the ball, we might have a T for dunking a dead ball.....
If he started dribbling and the officials knew the ball was dead, don't you think they would have simply blown a whistle and pulled him back before he dribbled the whole length of the floor? The OP only makes sense if the officials were also permitting play to take place.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 01:18pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Tim,
That's not what the OP meant. He was asking about a correctable error. If officials know and recognize there's another FT they would have blown whistle when B started dribbling. Had they recognized it they wouldn't have allowed him to dribble all the way down the court and shoot.

And.. if I blew my whistle after a FT and a kid continued on down the floor and didn't stop there would certainly be a T.
I agree that they should have blown their whistles, but even if they didn't, the ball is still dead by rule. Just because they didn't stop B1 from dribbling it down court doesn't make the ball live again.

The officials recognized it immediately thereafter - there was no interim play.

Because it was immediate, I maintain that the best way to handle it is to disallow B1's "goal" and proceed with A1's 2nd free throw. I can easily justify that by rule as previously cited.

"Coach, A1 was awarded two free throws. By rule the ball was dead when the first was missed and you can't score a goal when the ball is dead so B1's rebound and goal doesn't count. We're proceeding with A1's 2nd free throw."
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 17, 2016, 01:30pm
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Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
I agree that they should have blown their whistles, but even if they didn't, the ball is still dead by rule. Just because they didn't stop B1 from dribbling it down court doesn't make the ball live again.

The officials recognized it immediately thereafter - there was no interim play.

Because it was immediate, I maintain that the best way to handle it is to disallow B1's "goal" and proceed with A1's 2nd free throw. I can easily justify that by rule as previously cited.

"Coach, A1 was awarded two free throws. By rule the ball was dead when the first was missed and you can't score a goal when the ball is dead so B1's rebound and goal doesn't count. We're proceeding with A1's 2nd free throw."
While the OP is most likely talking about a CE, Tim has a point, albeit probably didn't happen. It has to be an officials error for us to be able to count the shot. Here's a play that isn't a thing: B coach tells his team to quickly rebound the first shot and throw it down for a lay-up in the hopes they can make the basket before the officials blow their whistle.
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