The Name Game (Shirley Ellis, 1964) ...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

More names in the score book than there are players warming up due to injury, illness, etc.

Is it necessary to erase the extra names?

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

We were always taught that it was better to have more names in the book than those warming up rather than fewer names in the book than those warming up.

Tonight, my partner, the referee, insisted that the extra names be erased. He was the referee, so I just let him do his thing. I've never had anyone insist on this before. Was he right, or wrong?

Your partner was the definition of OOO here. This is nothing. You don't know if A45 is running late. By forcing them to erase names, you'd be creating an unfair technical foul later.

He's reading way too much into the rule.

Where is the rule that restricts who a coach may list on the roster?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Where is the rule that restricts who a coach may list on the roster?

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

[Raymond]

No one I work for cares who was dressed and when, just be in the book if you do play. And I have worked college games where we've T'd for players being entered into book after the game started and for an incorrect number.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

Nothing in those definitions says they have to be present.

[Dad]

Your partner was probably grumpy. I'd be grumpy having to do 2-man.

I have my first 2-man game of the year tomorrow and I have no idea what to do!!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dad

Your partner was probably grumpy. I'd be grumpy having to do 2-man.

I have my first 2-man game of the year tomorrow and I have no idea what to do!!!

Run!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nothing in those definitions says they have to be present.

Agree, even though it's contrary to the stupid IAABO refresher exam interpretation.

But how about the injured kid not in uniform on the bench (this is the kid whose name my partner had erased)? Do the NFHS rules address that?

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player

So, would it be legal, or illegal, for the scorebook roster to include an adult assistant coach who is on the bench (bench personnel but not a team member), not eligible to play, and not in uniform? (Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.) Erase, or ignore? (Pretend its a written test question.)

[Eastshire]

The rules say you have to list each team member. It doesn't say you can only list team members. So it's a lower limit, not an exact requirement.

There is no rule which prevents bench personnel from being listed in the scorebook.

Around here, it's hit and miss with partners who want to cross out anyone not present/not in uniform..

Edit: And furthermore, the team isn't responsible for what goes in the scorebook anyways. It's only responsible for the list provided to the scorer. Although the argument there is the same: at least all the team members, no upper limit.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

The rules say you have to list each team member. It doesn't say you can only list team members. So it's a lower limit, not an exact requirement.

There is no rule which prevents bench personnel from being listed in the scorebook.

Around here, it's hit and miss with partners who want to cross out anyone not present/not in uniform..

Edit: And furthermore, the team isn't responsible for what goes in the scorebook anyways. It's only responsible for the list provided to the scorer. Although the argument there is the same: at least all the team members, no upper limit.

That is the key. If some overly officious official wants to erase names from the book, then so be it. But if that player is later sent to the table to report in to the game, there is no penalty AS LONG AS THAT PLAYER'S NAME AND THE CORRECT NUMBER WAS PROPERLY PROVIDED TO THE SCORER PRIOR TO THE 10 MINUTE MARK.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Around here, it's hit and miss with partners who want to cross out anyone not present/not in uniform.

Eastshire: You've seen this before, with multiple colleagues? So this really isn't an exercise in counting angels on the head of a pin?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

So, would it be legal, or illegal, for the scorebook roster to include an adult assistant coach who is on the bench (bench personnel but not a team member), not eligible to play, and not in uniform? (Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.) Erase, or ignore? (Pretend its a written test question.)

Seriously Billy, why? As in why are you asking this question? Is this helping newer officials who are looking for real world applications of the rules? To me, all you're doing is confusing them with these questions that nobody asks but you.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Seriously Billy, why? As in why are you asking this question? Is this helping newer officials who are looking for real world applications of the rules? To me, all you're doing is confusing them with these questions that nobody asks but you.

This forum is actually in 100% agreement on this. That should tell you something.

I think you're trying to hard to justify your partner's decisions here. That's admirable, but futile.

[rockyroad]

From games last Friday...

C Team (freshman) game and JV game going on at the same time in adjacent gyms. Player is playing first half of C team game and second half of JV game. So he is listed in both books.

According to BillyMac's partner, we would have to erase his name from the JV book since he is not warming up with them. And then we would have to issue a T for adding his name to the JV book in the second half.

Good luck with that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think you're trying to hard to justify your partner's decisions here. That's admirable, but futile.

He was the referee. I just let him do his thing and argue with the coach ("I always list my entire roster. Nobody has ever asked me to erase a name before."). I felt that he was being overly officious, and I didn't even broach the subject with him after the game. I brought this to the Forum to get a definitive answer so that the next time he does this (he's done this before), I can hit him where it hurts with a citation, or two, like the posts from Eastshire, Camron Rust, and Adam (above).

For your information, I asked the same question to my local interpreter. He said more names are better than fewer names.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Seriously Billy, why? As in why are you asking this question? Is this helping newer officials who are looking for real world applications of the rules? To me, all you're doing is confusing them with these questions that nobody asks but you.

An award winning middle school science teacher for thirty-plus years knows how to ask pointed questions to educate, and to elicit followup questions to make a point.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.