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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 10:53am
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Question NCAAW Rules

I have a question. If team A starts with 5 players and then the 6th player shows up after halftime to play and is recorded in the official book, can she play or not? Please state the rule section. Had this happen in a game last night, AAU Girls. They use NC2AW rules and mechanics.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 11:13am
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She can play, but her team is charged with a technical foul (when she's added to the book).

Rule 3, Section 3.
Art. 2. After the time limit specified in Rule 3-3.1 and before the start of
the game, a team shall be charged with a maximum of one indirect technical
foul for one or more of the following:
a. Failure to comply with Rule 3-3.1.
b. Adding name(s) to the squad list.
c. Changing squad memberís number(s) without reporting the change(s)
to the scorers and an official.

Because it's an indirect technical foul, it will NOT count towards the bonus for the half in which it occurs. Penalty is two shots for the offended team, then play resumes at the POI.

Edit: Apparently this was my 4 000th post. I'll try not to think about how pathetic that is.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 01:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2
I have a question. If team A starts with 5 players and then the 6th player shows up after halftime to play and is recorded in the official book, can she play or not? Please state the rule section. Had this happen in a game last night, AAU Girls. They use NC2AW rules and mechanics.
So are you saying she showed up but was already in the book, or that she showed up and then was added to the book...like Mark said, if she had to be added to the book it's a T, but if she was already in the book then she can play with no penalty.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
So are you saying she showed up but was already in the book, or that she showed up and then was added to the book...like Mark said, if she had to be added to the book it's a T, but if she was already in the book then she can play with no penalty.
YMMV with the second part of this. While I've never seen rulebook support for it, I know some referees who insist that the players listed in the scorebook be limited to those players who are actually at the game site at the time the rosters are submitted.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 06:08pm
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Nfhs - Iaabo

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005 (NFHS Rules):

Question 73: Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

Answer: Yes

Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 06:30pm
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For NFHS, I tend to agree with the IAABO interpretation, although the rulebook could be a bit more explicit on this regard.

For NCAA, however, the only requirement is a list of "names and uniform numbers of squad members who may participate" (3-3-1a). The definition of team member (4-63) is the same in both codes.
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 06:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
IAABO Refresher Exam 2005 (NFHS Rules):

Question 73: Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

Answer: Yes

Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4
Note to anybody reading....

That is NOT an official NFHS interpretation. It is an IAABO interpretation only, and IAABO interpretations are not official NFHS interpretations. I've also talked to several IAABO interpreters who do NOT agree with whoever came up this one either. Our association rules interpreter certainly disagreed with it, as do I.

There is nothing rules-wise that definitively backs up that interpretation. The rules cited by IAABO above sureashell don't. R3-2-1 simply says that each team has to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that states that a team member entered in the book must also be physically present when his/her name and number are put in the book. Similarly, rule 4-34-4 simply says that a team member must be in uniform and a member of bench personnel to become a player. It doesn't state when those requirements have to be met.

I can just see telling a coach that his player in the locker room getting taped during warm-up won't be allowed to play because they weren't on the court when an official counted the players. Or maybe a player in the dressing room in the bathroom......

You always have to be careful when reading non-NFHS issued interpretations. Do not take anything as gospel just because it came from IAABO or appeared in Referee magazine. Neither of those sources are official NFHS sources, and both have been guilty in the past numerous times of making wrong rulings.

Silly monkeys......
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Old Sat May 05, 2007, 09:55pm
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1) I cannot find my copy of the IAABO 2006-07 Refresher Exam and Answer Key, so I do not know the exact question as printed in the 2006-07 Refresher Exam

2) IAABO is a basketball officials association and does not issue rules interpretations per se. IAABO publishes a refresher exam as a study aid for its members. IAABO's answer's to it Refresher Exam is based on NFHS and NCAA rules and interpretations and if a question on its Refresher Exam is identical to a NFHS Casebook Play or Supplimental Rules Interpretation or a NCAA Approved Ruling, the IAABO Answer Key will reflect the NFHS and NCAA rulings.

3) If the IAABO Refresher Exam is the same as the one being discussed in this thread then the answer in the IAABO Answer Key is incorrect.

There is absolutely nothing in the NFHS and NCAA rules that prohibit a team from submitting the name of a player in the scorebook ten minutes before the game even if the player will not arrive at the game site until after the game has started.

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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 07:35am
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I brought this question up back in October. Here's Bob's reply, which I think is perfect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jenkins
The rule says that all team members must be listed. It doesn't say that additional names can't also be listed.

Let it go.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 08:00am
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The IAABO ruling hinges on definition of "team member" ("member of bench personnel who is in uniform and eligible to become a player.") My IAABO interpreter is among those who say that there may not be more players listed in the book than are at the gym site during warmups. This ruling followed a conference call with many IAABO interpreters and eventually found its way into the refresher exam.

I enforced this for exactly one game and then stopped -- in part because other officials I worked with (including many from the same IAABO board) said they would not.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 10:33am
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This borders on over-officiating. Why look for trouble? You telling me I'm gonna tell the coach to remove these names from the book! I have never heard or seen any official do this! Likewise, I just count up the players and try to make sure if I got 15, there's 15 listed in the book. If there 16 or more, I have never heard of anything that says in the rules to remove 16 and above if they're not present.

However, a player is stuck in traffic, car drifted off the road in a snowstorm, auto accident, any number of factors like this could come into to play. He calls the coach and informs him he will be late but will be there. The coach believes his player and adds his number to the book. The player gets there 10-minutes after the start of the game. All is good, the name and # is in the book. The player can immedately enter the game.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 12:41pm
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Over-Officiating ...

From Old School: "This borders on over-officiating. Why look for trouble?"

I agree 100%! Our IAABO interpreter questioned this 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam answer with IAABO and was told that the question and answer, as I stated in an earlier post, which, by the way, I copied word for word from the exam, was not a mistake. Mistakes happen on two or three questions every year, I can't believe that a large organization, like IAABO, can't do a better job of proofreading.

Our interpreter has told us to ignore this IAABO "interpretation" of NFHS rules. When we count players during the warmups, and check the scorebook, we like to see more players listed in the book than are on the floor.

In my opinion, this has been the worst question and answer that I've ever seen on an IAABO exam or refresher exam in my 27 years with IAABO. A close second to this question, was the refesher exam question asking if it was legal for players to play basketball in a "football three-point stance".

When I was coaching (yes, I was on the "Dark Side" for over twenty-five years), I would list all fourteen of my squad members, in numerical order, in the book, for every game, even if players were sick, injured, or in street clothes on the bench for a suspension, etc., and I would instruct my manager to simply copy this list of fourteen players from game to game, thus avoiding any possibility of a technical foul for not listing player.

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun May 06, 2007 at 12:51pm.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 12:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
When I was coaching (yes, I was on the "Dark Side" for over twenty-five years),
Why do you call coaching the dark side?
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 08:08pm
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Why do you call coaching the dark side?
Because in officiating, you use "the force".
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 08:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
I brought this question up back in October. Here's Bob's reply, which I think is perfect:
Ah yes, back in October, when we didn't have to ask who the heck you are.

Anywho, as Bob said the rules only require the names be in the book, not that the players be present, suited up and ready to go.
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