Which Ref Is Correct?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by xyrph

Yes, the initial ref calls an illegal screen on White #11.

Are you assuming that because of the direction he went or did you hear him say White 11? The table almost immediately indicated 5 fouls on #4 so it leads me to believe they were told Black 4.

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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If I call that foul on B4 and she waves her arms at me like that then I'm probabaly whacking her. The key for me is whether she is looking at me or not. If yes, she is probably showing me up. If no, probably mad at herself. I am way more likely to give a coach a moment to react and calm down, players don't get as much rope.

Really, for that? You have a play where a foul could reasonably be called on either player and a spontaneous reaction clearly looks like she thinks the call is in her favor. And when the reaction is first over, she stops.

To me that is not very good GM if you give her a T and this is the only incident or situation she reacts. She would have to have done a lot more and clearly understand that the foul was not on her. But she seems to think the foul was in her favor.

Peace

[BillyMac]

No technical foul. Not even for all the tea in China.

[Rich]

I was working a boys playoff game about 5-6 years ago. Still back when we worked 2-person in the first few rounds.

OT. Close game, still, about 90 seconds left. Packed gym. Great atmosphere.

Visiting defender tried to steal the ball, got the arm of the ball handler. I called a foul. The player, already moving in that direction, threw his arms up in the air and ran from the front court all the way to the other end of the floor with his arms in the air.

I called a technical foul for the reaction. 4 free throws later....

I still wonder if I should've given a bit more rope on that one, years later.

Back to this play: There's no way I'd even consider a technical foul here. I'm still confused what the official called myself.

I didn't say I would whack the girl in this exact situation. I said I would whack the girl if I called the foul on her, she knew it, and she clapped and waved her arms at me like that. I don't go looking for T's but I'm not afraid to take care of business when needed.

[JRutledge]

If a reaction is immediate and not prolonged, I have a really hard time giving anyone a T unless they have been reacting in a similar way multiple times. You can always talk to a player to tell them to knock it off if you think it is something that is directed at you. Players are always going to show some disappointment in a call or two during a game.

It has nothing to do with being afraid to take care of business, but if this is a T, you will be calling many of them over the course of your career that others will pass on. Just sayin....

Peace

[Dad]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I didn't say I would whack the girl in this exact situation. I said I would whack the girl if I called the foul on her, she knew it, and she clapped and waved her arms at me like that. I don't go looking for T's but I'm not afraid to take care of business when needed.

I wouldn't call this taking care of business. More like taking care of a mess, which you'll have after you call a T.

This is like telling your wife you'll take out the trash. Tipping the trash upside down and spilling it all over the place. Then picking it all up and wanting to claim credit.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If a reaction is immediate and not prolonged, I have a really hard time giving anyone a T unless they have been reacting in a similar way multiple times. You can always talk to a player to tell them to knock it off if you think it is something that is directed at you. Players are always going to show some disappointment in a call or two during a game.

It has nothing to do with being afraid to take care of business, but if this is a T, you will be calling many of them over the course of your career that others will pass on. Just sayin....

Peace

I look for multiple reactions. Depending on how bad the first one is, after the first 1-2 reactions I'll tell the coach to stop it before I do. After that I've rarely ever had an issue. Even if I throw a T later for more reactions I've never had a coach surprised at my call or do anything goofy to deserve a T.

Originally Posted by Dad

I wouldn't call this taking care of business. More like taking care of a mess, which you'll have after you call a T.

This is like telling your wife you'll take out the trash. Tipping the trash upside down and spilling it all over the place. Then picking it all up and wanting to claim credit.

Again, I DID NOT SAY I WOULD WHACK IN THIS SITUATION. I changed the parameters of the situation and said I would PROBABLY whack in MY SPECIFIC SITUATION. Everyone clear?

[SAK]

While I think that the trail got the play wrong, it appears to be a JV game and these officials should be on this site. There was enough time and distance for the defender to avoid contact but she decided to plow through the legal screen. Despite getting the play wrong, it needed a whistle and good job by the trail for saying with what he had to avoid a double foul.

With that said this is a mess. The ball in in bounded to the back court. There should have been a back court count, unless this is one of the states where they use NCAA rules for a high school game. Secondly the body language needs to be addressed. The lead, who had no business looking where at this play hits his whistle three times, seems to upstage the trail. Its just bad and if he had a different opinion they should have talked about it AWAY FROM THE COACHES. In addition there was no signal from anyone. Add to that that this player fouled out the officals need to look at the rule book for how to handle a player who fouls out. Inform the coach and then the player in that order. If you can have a non-calling official do this so that things don't get out of had with the coach especially if there is any doubt that the play was called correctly. The C should do that in this case because he is the only one that did not have any input on the play. Finally I cannot stress enough, have the conversation away from table staff, players, and coaches. These people are not your friends and this could cause an excited coach to cause him/herself to earn a T. Stay out of that situation.

Edit (forgot) if the lead has something different, why the heck he was looking there I cannot say, there would have to be a double foul because the foul was already reported to the table. This is another reason to officiate your primary. I would not want to have to explain this to a supervisor when he/she asked who was refereeing my primary (assuming I was the lead)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by SAK

While I think that the trail got the play wrong, it appears to be a JV game and these officials should be on this site. There was enough time and distance for the defender to avoid contact but she decided to plow through the legal screen. Despite getting the play wrong, it needed a whistle and good job by the trail for saying with what he had to avoid a double foul.

With that said this is a mess. The ball in in bounded to the back court. There should have been a back court count, unless this is one of the states where they use NCAA rules for a high school game. Secondly the body language needs to be addressed. The lead, who had no business looking where at this play hits his whistle three times, seems to upstage the trail. Its just bad and if he had a different opinion they should have talked about it AWAY FROM THE COACHES. In addition there was no signal from anyone. Add to that that this player fouled out the officals need to look at the rule book for how to handle a player who fouls out. Inform the coach and then the player in that order. If you can have a non-calling official do this so that things don't get out of had with the coach especially if there is any doubt that the play was called correctly. The C should do that in this case because he is the only one that did not have any input on the play. Finally I cannot stress enough, have the conversation away from table staff, players, and coaches. These people are not your friends and this could cause an excited coach to cause him/herself to earn a T. Stay out of that situation.

Edit (forgot) if the lead has something different, why the heck he was looking there I cannot say, there would have to be a double foul because the foul was already reported to the table. This is another reason to officiate your primary. I would not want to have to explain this to a supervisor when he/she asked who was refereeing my primary (assuming I was the lead)

If you think these officials should be on the site, then most of these points are moot. Trail is new and not going to have strong mechanics. T handled the play well and cleared it up.

I'd explain this to a supervisor with zero problems. Everyone was confused and he wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page. You have no idea where he was looking and to top it off watching your primary doesn't mean your blind to everything else in the gym.

[Rich]

Moot.

(Twice in one week.)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Rich

Moot.

(Twice in one week.)

Thanks

[SAK]

Originally Posted by Dad

If you think these officials should be on the site, then most of these points are mute. Trail is new and not going to have strong mechanics. T handled the play well and cleared it up.

I'd explain this to a supervisor with zero problems. Everyone was confused and he wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page. You have no idea where he was looking and to top it off watching your primary doesn't mean your blind to everything else in the gym.

While it does not mean that you are blind to the rest of the gym I would have a hard time going that far out of my area to reach for a call. To make that call I would have to be 100% sure or more.

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[Dad]

Originally Posted by SAK

While it does not mean that you are blind to the rest of the gym I would have a hard time going that far out of my area to reach for a call. To make that call I would have to be 100% sure or more.

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I really don't think he was reaching for a call. The table was holding up for what looks like 5 fouls before the lead even comes in. Looks like the call stood to me and it was just the initial reaction by the coach, player, and mechanics of the trail which caused the lead to come over.