play at the plate UNC vs. NC State

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

exactly what I thought at the time -- and I thought initially that at least one of the players had been ejected.

I'll bet it comes up in the videos at the meetings next spring

And I hope someone has the balls to ask the question, "Why weren't they ejected?"

I thought Burleson dealt with the coach extremely well.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich

And I hope someone has the balls to ask the question, "Why weren't they ejected?"

I thought Burleson dealt with the coach extremely well.

Good point - it was a great call but should have been an ejection also. Will be interesting to see how NCAA handles that for next year - bet its going to be a POE or something of that nature.

Thanks
David

[jicecone]

Sometimes you have to understand what you are there to do. Umpire a game.

Both of the players threw their equipment out of frustration. Not as much with the umpires call as with the outcome of what they expected the call to be. GOOD players, that work hard in important games have emotions just like everyone else. Sometimes you as an official have to stand back and let that frustration happen, deal with it and move on.

If you can't, then your telling the rest of the world that you don't belong in that situation. You lack the confidence as an official, in controlling a contest at any given moment and you either need to eject someone because of a preconceived idea that it will make you look better, or it is the only way you know, how to handle a situation. You need seasoning and your definetly not ready to handle the game in question.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Sometimes you have to understand what you are there to do. Umpire a game.

Both of the players threw their equipment out of frustration. Not as much with the umpires call as with the outcome of what they expected the call to be. GOOD players, that work hard in important games have emotions just like everyone else. Sometimes you as an official have to stand back and let that frustration happen, deal with it and move on.

If you can't, then your telling the rest of the world that you don't belong in that situation. You lack the confidence as an official, in controlling a contest at any given moment and you either need to eject someone because of a preconceived idea that it will make you look better, or it is the only way you know, how to handle a situation. You need seasoning and your definetly not ready to handle the game in question.

There is certainly some truth to the fact the the leash is a little longer on an immediate emotional reaction to a play like this. Certainly (I think) had one of the players yelled "no way. he was out. You have to see that" and THEN thrown the glove / mask, thre would have been an ejection.

The question though, is whether the "long leash" extends to that much of a display.

[UES]

Here's the reality of the play - NCAA POST SEASON (Regional, Super Regional & CWS):

1: Both players would have been ejected in a regular season NCAA game, however, this was not a typical regular season game. At this stage of the season, leashes are much longer (right or wrong) and that's what the NCAA wants. Many of you disagree with this (and I, to a certain extent, feel the same way), BUT if you want to work NCAA post season baseball, especially at D-1 level, you need to understand these things... even if you don't necessarily agree with them.

2: JB could have easily thrown them out and would have been totallhy justified ... HOWEVER, doing so, in this particular situation (ejecting the starting pitcher and catcher in the 4th inning of the CWS) would have drastically impacted the outcome of the game. Its very easy to have a knee jerk reaction and automatically dump both of those players in that situation (and rightfully so) BUT, fair or unfair, that's not necessarily in the "best interest" of THAT game at THAT particular time. (I know that sounds stupid to most of you but that's the reality of NCAA post season games in this day in age)

3. Dumping both of those kids would have been front page news and would have been one of the only things talked about after that game (ie, NC State loses after HP Umpire ejects Starting P & Catcher of game). We all know that's BS but that is how baseball people think and the media would have had a field day with it. One of the common criticisms of officials is that we need to let the "players decide the outcome of the game". Right or wrong, that's exactly what Burley did in this situation and I can guarantee you that he was praised by Gene McCartor and the NCAA "brass" after the game (despite what many umpires feel he should have done)

4. Players (or "student athletes" as they are commonly referred to, lol) often react on emotion and their behavior is held to lower standards because they are 'kids". Officials, on the other hand, are adults that are held to a much higher standard and expected to keep their composure at all times, regardless of how bad players and coaches act. Unfortunately, this also means that in certain rare situations, like the play we're talking about, we are expected to be "more understanding" of how important these games are to the "kids". Yes, I know, its a bunch of BS and an excuse that allows them to act inappropriately and get away with it. Again, this is a sign of the times because if I would have acted in that manner when I played ball growing up, my COACH would have taken me out of the game and my dad would have beat my a$$ when I got home.

5. I could go on and on but while all of you make good points as to why they should have been dumped... ultimately, I think Burleson made the right decision at that particular time, with those particular players involved and with the magnitude of that particular game. Don't get me wrong, he would have also been right to eject them but that decision may have not set very well with the NCAA people... the same one's that make the umpire selections and pay them almost $5,000 to officiate the CWS. Sometime, the saying... "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is something you follow - even when you don't necessarily agree with some of the direction given.

[Mrumpiresir]

Originally Posted by UES

Here's the reality of the play - NCAA POST SEASON (Regional, Super Regional & CWS):

1: Both players would have been ejected in a regular season NCAA game, however, this was not a typical regular season game. At this stage of the season, leashes are much longer (right or wrong) and that's what the NCAA wants. Many of you disagree with this (and I, to a certain extent, feel the same way), BUT if you want to work NCAA post season baseball, especially at D-1 level, you need to understand these things... even if you don't necessarily agree with them.

2: JB could have easily thrown them out and would have been totallhy justified ... HOWEVER, doing so, in this particular situation (ejecting the starting pitcher and catcher in the 4th inning of the CWS) would have drastically impacted the outcome of the game. Its very easy to have a knee jerk reaction and automatically dump both of those players in that situation (and rightfully so) BUT, fair or unfair, that's not necessarily in the "best interest" of THAT game at THAT particular time. (I know that sounds stupid to most of you but that's the reality of NCAA post season games in this day in age)

3. Dumping both of those kids would have been front page news and would have been one of the only things talked about after that game (ie, NC State loses after HP Umpire ejects Starting P & Catcher of game). We all know that's BS but that is how baseball people think and the media would have had a field day with it. One of the common criticisms of officials is that we need to let the "players decide the outcome of the game". Right or wrong, that's exactly what Burley did in this situation and I can guarantee you that he was praised by Gene McCartor and the NCAA "brass" after the game (despite what many umpires feel he should have done)

4. Players (or "student athletes" as they are commonly referred to, lol) often react on emotion and their behavior is held to lower standards because they are 'kids". Officials, on the other hand, are adults that are held to a much higher standard and expected to keep their composure at all times, regardless of how bad players and coaches act. Unfortunately, this also means that in certain rare situations, like the play we're talking about, we are expected to be "more understanding" of how important these games are to the "kids". Yes, I know, its a bunch of BS and an excuse that allows them to act inappropriately and get away with it. Again, this is a sign of the times because if I would have acted in that manner when I played ball growing up, my COACH would have taken me out of the game and my dad would have beat my a$$ when I got home.

5. I could go on and on but while all of you make good points as to why they should have been dumped... ultimately, I think Burleson made the right decision at that particular time, with those particular players involved and with the magnitude of that particular game. Don't get me wrong, he would have also been right to eject them but that decision may have not set very well with the NCAA people... the same one's that make the umpire selections and pay them almost $5,000 to officiate the CWS. Sometime, the saying... "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is something you follow - even when you don't necessarily agree with some of the direction given.

Well said. That explains a lot. Thanks for posting that.

[DG]

It wasn't "just" a CWS game. It was the 5th meeting of the year between NC State and UNC, both having won 2 each, fierce rivals in all sports, schools 20 miles apart and in the same conference, and playing an elimination game in the CWS.

Joe Burleson handled this well, and if it is discussed in Spring meetings, that is how it will be described to handle this situation in a game of this magnitude.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Sometimes you have to understand what you are there to do. Umpire a game.

Both of the players threw their equipment out of frustration. Not as much with the umpires call as with the outcome of what they expected the call to be. GOOD players, that work hard in important games have emotions just like everyone else. Sometimes you as an official have to stand back and let that frustration happen, deal with it and move on.

If you can't, then your telling the rest of the world that you don't belong in that situation. You lack the confidence as an official, in controlling a contest at any given moment and you either need to eject someone because of a preconceived idea that it will make you look better, or it is the only way you know, how to handle a situation. You need seasoning and your definetly not ready to handle the game in question.

I disagree to a point. I certainly expect one-half of the players and coaches involved in a game to be frustrated or upset with any close call like this one. I also expect a certain amount of that frustration to come out. But throwing down the mask and glove crosses the line into showing me up and that is not something I am going to allow. Very few others can hear what is said, but the action of throwing the equipment is visible for all to see. That needs to be dealt with. I would have expected an ejection on this play.

With all of that being said, I also understand the "big game, big stage" side of the discussion and calling and managing the game the way your superiors instruct you to. It would certainly be interesting to hear the post game dissection of this play and the reactions to it between the crew and the NCAA observers.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

But throwing down the mask and glove crosses the line into showing me up and that is not something I am going to allow.

In 99% of the games I work ... likely 99% of the games worked by everyone reading this ... you're right. That's an ejection.

Except if your game is an NCAA game - big game or not. If you insist you would eject over this in an NCAA game, you won't work there long... conversely, if it bothers you enough that your instructions in an NCAA game would be to not eject over this - simply don't work NCAA games.

[UES]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

... except if your game is an NCAA game - big game or not. If you insist you would eject over this in an NCAA game, you won't work there long... .

I respectfully disagree because if this was a regular season NCAA D-I game, the catcher for sure would have been ejected and the pitcher probably would have gone too. The CWS "stage" as well as the position (Starting Pitcher & Catcher) of the players involved had a lot to do with why Burley kept them in THIS particular game.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by UES

I respectfully disagree because if this was a regular season NCAA D-I game, the catcher for sure would have been ejected and the pitcher probably would have gone too. The CWS "stage" as well as the position (Starting Pitcher & Catcher) of the players involved had a lot to do with why Burley kept them in THIS particular game.

That's funny to me as the catcher is the one I'm least likely to eject. He throws his mask immediately and away from the umpire in a way that says to me "I'm frustrated with myself." The pitcher on the other hand turns to the umpire and throws his glove down in the umpires direction which to me is challenging the umpire.

If I'm only dumping one, it's the pitcher.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

In 99% of the games I work ... likely 99% of the games worked by everyone reading this ... you're right. That's an ejection.

Except if your game is an NCAA game - big game or not. If you insist you would eject over this in an NCAA game, you won't work there long... conversely, if it bothers you enough that your instructions in an NCAA game would be to not eject over this - simply don't work NCAA games.

Simply not true. I work NCAA baseball and I would easily eject both players over this.

[asdf]

Just wondering if it's a 3-2 pitch that is called ball four and both players react the same way, does the want NCAA ejection?

If so, that's BS as they are now establishing scenarios to eject and scenarios to pass for the same reaction.

If not, that's just plain BS.