What happened to me (Suspended)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by umpjim

LL allows multiple coaches outside at this level. However, if the league does not permit this in their rules and wants you to ignore it you might ask if their insurance carrier wanted it that way.

I've umpired Little League at the local level all the way up to a World Series tournament. Trust me when I say we do *not* allow this at the minors level.

Perhaps you are using Little League like everyone does to refer to a league that's not affiliated with LL. Or perhaps your local LL allows this. Ours does not, nor does LLI.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

You don't seem to get it. This is not your decision to make.

What's not to get? Their rules clearly state where the coaches need to be. Perhaps you who feel that its okay to let the coaches run the show should work these games. I certainly won't.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by tankmjg24

What is there not to get? Their own rules clearly state that the defensive coaches must remain in the dugout. The rules of a good majority of youth leagues state the same.

What you don't get Tank is that you were there to officiate a 10 yr old game of baseball and NOT to set the League straight on what rules are, or, are not important. If you were at a League Directors meeting it may have been different but, you were just officiating a 10 yr old game of basseball and the auduence you had, did not come to listen to your message.

Your intentions were honorable.

The way you delivered your message, left a lot to be desired.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

I've umpired Little League at the local level all the way up to a World Series tournament. Trust me when I say we do *not* allow this at the minors level.

Perhaps you are using Little League like everyone does to refer to a league that's not affiliated with LL. Or perhaps your local LL allows this. Ours does not, nor does LLI.

I've never seen it either, and the LL rule book is a muddle:

Section XIV

(d) A manager or coach shall not leave the bench or dugout except to confer with a player or an umpire and only after receiving permission from an umpire. (EXCEPTION: In Minor League and Tee Ball, managers and coaches may be on the field for instructional purposes, but shall not assist runners or touch a live ball. At least one adult manager or coach must be in the dugout at all times.)

Rule 2

A COACH is an adult appointed to perform such duties as the manager shall designate. NOTE: if two(2) coaches are
appointed, the second coach may be age 16 years or older.
[MINOR BASEBALL/SOFTBALL: Option may be adopted to allow Manager and coaches on field.]

The definition of MANAGER has similar wording.

So, does this mean that the local Little League has to explicitly adopt the option to have Minors coaches on the fields?

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by jicecone

What you don't get Tank is that you were there to officiate a 10 yr old game of baseball and NOT to set the League straight on what rules are, or, are not important. If you were at a League Directors meeting it may have been different but, you were just officiating a 10 yr old game of basseball and the auduence you had, did not come to listen to your message.

Your intentions were honorable.

The way you delivered your message, left a lot to be desired.

On a recent thread, Would you ignore Local Rule?, the consensus seemed to be that local rules should be enforced as written without umpire's discretion. That seemed like good advice to me. I cannot see how Tank's situation at root is any different.

I honestly don't know how I would have responded to the situation Tank found himself in. I do know that I wouldn't regret the suspension, as nothing could entice me to work a second game for that league.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

I've never seen it either, and the LL rule book is a muddle:

Section XIV

(d) A manager or coach shall not leave the bench or dugout except to confer with a player or an umpire and only after receiving permission from an umpire. (EXCEPTION: In Minor League and Tee Ball, managers and coaches may be on the field for instructional purposes, but shall not assist runners or touch a live ball. At least one adult manager or coach must be in the dugout at all times.)

Rule 2

A COACH is an adult appointed to perform such duties as the manager shall designate. NOTE: if two(2) coaches are
appointed, the second coach may be age 16 years or older.
[MINOR BASEBALL/SOFTBALL: Option may be adopted to allow Manager and coaches on field.]

The definition of MANAGER has similar wording.

So, does this mean that the local Little League has to explicitly adopt the option to have Minors coaches on the fields?

Rule 2 in the hard copy does not have that exception but the 2011 RIM (don't have 2012 handy) does:

A COACH is an adult appointed to perform such duties as the manager shall designate. NOTE: if two(2) coaches are
appointed, the second coach may be age 16 years or older. [TBALL: Defensive coaches are permitted on the field for instructional purposes. Coaches are not permitted to touch a live ball but they may instruct players.] [TBALL: Offensive coaches are permitted in the coaching box and at home plate for instruction but they are not permitted to assist base runners.] [MINOR BASEBALL/SOFTBALL: Option may be adopted to allow Manager and coaches on field.]

[REFANDUMP]

I'll throw in my .02 here.

Was the other teams coach (or coaches) out of the dugout. If they were, that would have been a sign to me that this was acceptable in that area and would have left them alone, unless they were there questioning calls instead of coaching their kids. Why make a problem when there isn't one ?? I've been umpiring 30+ years and have never seen a player injured because of a coach.

What the hell pitches are the coaches calling ? It's 10 year old ball. The only thing they should be calling is "throw strikes" !!!

Once the board member confronted me and tried telling me what to do, I would have been long gone and he could have done whatever he wanted to (without you).

I would no longer be umpiring for this league if they're not going to back their umpires.

In my opinion, there is fault on everyone involved.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

On a recent thread, Would you ignore Local Rule?, the consensus seemed to be that local rules should be enforced as written without umpire's discretion. That seemed like good advice to me. I cannot see how Tank's situation at root is any different.

I honestly don't know how I would have responded to the situation Tank found himself in. I do know that I wouldn't regret the suspension, as nothing could entice me to work a second game for that league.

Close the dang book and think about diplomacy. You can be a dick and enforce the rules or you enforce them with a little diplomacy, depending on the level of ball your doing.

Sometimes it comes in the form of a Dictator and sometimes it requires the word please and thank you.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Rule 2 in the hard copy does not have that exception but the 2011 RIM (don't have 2012 handy) does:

A COACH is an adult appointed to perform such duties as the manager shall designate. NOTE: if two(2) coaches are
appointed, the second coach may be age 16 years or older. [TBALL: Defensive coaches are permitted on the field for instructional purposes. Coaches are not permitted to touch a live ball but they may instruct players.] [TBALL: Offensive coaches are permitted in the coaching box and at home plate for instruction but they are not permitted to assist base runners.] [MINOR BASEBALL/SOFTBALL: Option may be adopted to allow Manager and coaches on field.]

Yes, I was working fromthe 2012 RIM. My book is not in front of me right now.

So, the hard copy just has the reference in Section XIV. Reading just that, I would infer that LL always permits coaches on the field in Minors. Though I still have yet to see it.

I wonder how my board would decide a protest over this issue.

[kylejt]

In non-competetive LL minors the coaches are allowed, if decreed by the local rules, to be in the field of play with their defensive team. Plus, you've got the variable of the pitching machine, or coach pitch. And, seeing that you always need an adult in the dugout, sometimes three coaches aren't enough.

That said, sitting on buckets outside the dugouts is never allowed in a properly run LL game. But this wasn't LL.

Whenever I'm asked to work at park that's new to me, I always make an advanced visit, to see how things flow. I'm not going to go in green, and start imposing Marshall Law, when it's clear that a lot of rules aren't being followed. I'd just be labeled a dope, and asked not to return.

Gotta know your audience.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

Yes, I was working fromthe 2012 RIM. My book is not in front of me right now.

So, the hard copy just has the reference in Section XIV. Reading just that, I would infer that LL always permits coaches on the field in Minors. Though I still have yet to see it.

I wonder how my board would decide a protest over this issue.

"Option may be adopted..."

It's a local league decision. Which is irrelevant in the OP because the rules specifically say the coaches are not allowed out of the dugout.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

Thanks for reminding me why I don't work levels below high school.

Amen

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Close the dang book and think about diplomacy. You can be a dick and enforce the rules or you enforce them with a little diplomacy, depending on the level of ball your doing.

Sometimes it comes in the form of a Dictator and sometimes it requires the word please and thank you.

So, we both agree that the rules should be enforced. Tank describes himself as having been polite and professional, which is a large part of the way to diplomatic. Or do you mean by Diplomacy that Tank should have agreed to enforce only the rules the coaches wanted enforced?

[kylejt]

You just have to know the hill you want to die on, that's all.

If a local allows coaches to sit on buckets, and have for years, then someone comes alongs and starts ejecting over it, that's going to be a problem, rules or no rules.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

So, we both agree that the rules should be enforced. Tank describes himself as having been polite and professional, which is a large part of the way to diplomatic. Or do you mean by Diplomacy that Tank should have agreed to enforce only the rules the coaches wanted enforced?

It is one thing not to know, but when you don't know, that you don't know, I can't help you.