d-backs/padres ending

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Not clear at all. It is clear that with the bases loaded, a walk or HBP allows each runner to advance one base without liability of being put out. BUT the game is not over UNTIL R3 touches home and B/R touches first. A batted ball is different since no run can score when a force out is the third out at any base. You see the situation often.... Grounder to third on over to second, on to the tenth tie game. The game is not over because the runners were forced and R3 touched home and B/R
touched first. The little matter of the 5-4 force negated the run and forces are not timing plays. If the (next) base or the runner (R1 or R2) is tagged before the runner touches the base, it is a force out. If it is the third out, no runs score. In the OP where R2 abandoned his attempt to advance to third he could "theoretically" be put out on appeal, but the run counted and the game ended before the appeal could be made.


In Merkle's Boner there were runners on first and third and Merkle did not advance to and touch second after an apparent game winning hit. Would it make any sense that the situation would be any different just because the bases were loaded??

I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

[SanDiegoSteve]

...to Bob Jenkins RE: Last entry in recently closed thread...ROTFLMAO!!! Great post!

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.

Read 4.09(b) closely...it says the game is not over UNTIL.... Not WHEN. That rule is not meant to absolve the offense of being in jeopardy of force outs just because the bases are loaded. It says that B/R and R3 have to go through the motion of advancing to and touching the base. Just like a B/R has to touch all the bases after a HR and the pitcher (in OBR) has to throw the pitches for an IBB.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.

Yes, I was wrong. Had my head up my butt while posting. Still doesn't apply to a walk off walk.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes, I was wrong. Had my head up my butt while posting. Still doesn't apply to a walk off walk.

Exactly. Rule 4.09(b) is for plays like a bases loaded walk, HBP, catcher's interference where it simply says B/R has to touch first and R3 has to touch the plate for the run to count and the game to end. This rule can even be waived if fans rush the field and interfere. It doesn't matter what R1 and R2 do....although might be interesting of Tony Plush as R1 had a burning desire to go hug R2 and passed him in the baseline while rounding second.

Also, say Tony was the batter and he wanted to celebrate rather than going down to first. So the first base coach picks him up off the pile and directs him to first. Would it be an out for coach's assistance negating the run?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Also, say Tony was the batter and he wanted to celebrate rather than going down to first. So the first base coach picks him up off the pile and directs him to first. Would it be an out for coach's assistance negating the run?

Yes, it would be an out, but not if another player picked him up and carried him to first. That would be legal.

[umpjong]

Larry,
After re reading my posts and the rules, I see where I got myself caught up on the scenario being the case of it just not happening in modern day. Technically you are right and I was wrong in that yes if a forced runner R2 or R1 has not advanced to their base prior to a defensive player touching the runner or base the run would not count. My apologies on this one. Regardless of what I was getting myself caught up on you were right in this interpretation.
Jon

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Larry,
After re reading my posts and the rules, I see where I got myself caught up on the scenario being the case of it just not happening in modern day. Technically you are right and I was wrong in that yes if a forced runner R2 or R1 has not advanced to their base prior to a defensive player touching the runner or base the run would not count. My apologies on this one. Regardless of what I was getting myself caught up on you were right in this interpretation.
Jon

Jon, thanks! I certainly agree with you that there is no basis to allow a protest for the actual OP. You were quite correct: rule 4.09(b) is very clear on that.

Larry