d-backs/padres ending

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Yes it is the Merkle play. The rule is different for a walk-off walk or HBP. If the ball is hit, the "force is on" and being a forced third out would negate the run.

Not true. Here is what 4.09b says and its absolutely clear.

4.09b When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter runner has touched first base.

As mbryon stated earlier what the runner from 1st and 2nd do is irrelevant. They do not have to advance to the next base. Only the batter and scoring runner.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Not true. Here is what 4.09b says and its absolutely clear.



As mbryon stated earlier what the runner from 1st and 2nd do is irrelevant. They do not have to advance to the next base. Only the batter and scoring runner.

Not clear at all. It is clear that with the bases loaded, a walk or HBP allows each runner to advance one base without liability of being put out. BUT the game is not over UNTIL R3 touches home and B/R touches first. A batted ball is different since no run can score when a force out is the third out at any base. You see the situation often.... Grounder to third on over to second, on to the tenth tie game. The game is not over because the runners were forced and R3 touched home and B/R
touched first. The little matter of the 5-4 force negated the run and forces are not timing plays. If the (next) base or the runner (R1 or R2) is tagged before the runner touches the base, it is a force out. If it is the third out, no runs score. In the OP where R2 abandoned his attempt to advance to third he could "theoretically" be put out on appeal, but the run counted and the game ended before the appeal could be made.


In Merkle's Boner there were runners on first and third and Merkle did not advance to and touch second after an apparent game winning hit. Would it make any sense that the situation would be any different just because the bases were loaded??

[Larry1953]

Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.

If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?

Rich, 4.09(b) says the game is not over UNTIL (not "when"). There is nothing in that wording that takes off the force. Say B/R hits a slow grounder to third and beats the throw to first. Meanwhile, R1 pulls a hamstring on his way to second and falls down incapacitated. He can still be forced at second for the third out to preserve the tie.

Why would 4.09(a) not ALWAYS apply?
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Rich, 4.09(b) says the game is not over UNTIL (not "when"). There is nothing in that wording that takes off the force. Say B/R hits a slow grounder to third and beats the throw to first. Meanwhile, R1 pulls a hamstring on his way to second and falls down incapacitated. He can still be forced at second for the third out to preserve the tie.

Why would 4.09(a) not ALWAYS apply?
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Do you not see the difference? This part of the rule paragraph (a) is for an inning ender not a game ender as (b) is for a game ender, thus the specific note that only the BR and R3 need to advance. You even cite your own answer. "The game is not over until R3 and the BR touch their bases. Thus excluding the other two runners from having to advance. If they wanted them included they would added them to that part of the rule. OBR is known for some vaguely written rules, but this one is not one of them. It is very specific and precise.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Do you not see the difference? This part of the rule paragraph (a) is for an inning ender not a game ender as (b) is for a game ender, thus the specific note that only the BR and R3 need to advance. You even cite your own answer. "The game is not over until R3 and the BR touch their bases. Thus excluding the other two runners from having to advance. If they wanted them included they would added them to that part of the rule. OBR is known for some vaguely written rules, but this one is not one of them. It is very specific and precise.

Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.

OK...4.09(b)...."or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance..." Fine, the batter hits a towering fly to the gap warning track deep. Is this "a play"? Yes. Does it force R3 to advance? Yes. Does R3 cross the plate and B/R reach first before the catch is made? Easily done, it was hit that deep. Then, according to rule 4.09(b) the run counts and the game is over. Well, we all know that is wrong because of the way the third out was made. It is the SAME thing if the third out is made by a force (at any base).

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Not clear at all. It is clear that with the bases loaded, a walk or HBP allows each runner to advance one base without liability of being put out. BUT the game is not over UNTIL R3 touches home and B/R touches first. A batted ball is different since no run can score when a force out is the third out at any base. You see the situation often.... Grounder to third on over to second, on to the tenth tie game. The game is not over because the runners were forced and R3 touched home and B/R
touched first. The little matter of the 5-4 force negated the run and forces are not timing plays. If the (next) base or the runner (R1 or R2) is tagged before the runner touches the base, it is a force out. If it is the third out, no runs score. In the OP where R2 abandoned his attempt to advance to third he could "theoretically" be put out on appeal, but the run counted and the game ended before the appeal could be made.


In Merkle's Boner there were runners on first and third and Merkle did not advance to and touch second after an apparent game winning hit. Would it make any sense that the situation would be any different just because the bases were loaded??

I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

[SanDiegoSteve]

...to Bob Jenkins RE: Last entry in recently closed thread...ROTFLMAO!!! Great post!

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.

Read 4.09(b) closely...it says the game is not over UNTIL.... Not WHEN. That rule is not meant to absolve the offense of being in jeopardy of force outs just because the bases are loaded. It says that B/R and R3 have to go through the motion of advancing to and touching the base. Just like a B/R has to touch all the bases after a HR and the pitcher (in OBR) has to throw the pitches for an IBB.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.

Yes, I was wrong. Had my head up my butt while posting. Still doesn't apply to a walk off walk.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes, I was wrong. Had my head up my butt while posting. Still doesn't apply to a walk off walk.

Exactly. Rule 4.09(b) is for plays like a bases loaded walk, HBP, catcher's interference where it simply says B/R has to touch first and R3 has to touch the plate for the run to count and the game to end. This rule can even be waived if fans rush the field and interfere. It doesn't matter what R1 and R2 do....although might be interesting of Tony Plush as R1 had a burning desire to go hug R2 and passed him in the baseline while rounding second.

Also, say Tony was the batter and he wanted to celebrate rather than going down to first. So the first base coach picks him up off the pile and directs him to first. Would it be an out for coach's assistance negating the run?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Also, say Tony was the batter and he wanted to celebrate rather than going down to first. So the first base coach picks him up off the pile and directs him to first. Would it be an out for coach's assistance negating the run?

Yes, it would be an out, but not if another player picked him up and carried him to first. That would be legal.