d-backs/padres ending

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Under OBR R3 needs to touch the plate and BR needs to touch 1B. R1 and R2 can do what they like. Sounds as if that's what happened.

Exactly, just like on a walk-off hit. As soon as R3 touches home and the BR touches first, the game is over and R1 and R2 are of no consequence. Black had no grounds for protest, and frankly should have not grasped at straws just because his crappy team lost yet another game. Looked kind of silly.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Exactly, just like on a walk-off hit. As soon as R3 touches home and the BR touches first, the game is over and R1 and R2 are of no consequence. Black had no grounds for protest, and frankly should have not grasped at straws just because his crappy team lost yet another game. Looked kind of silly.

Look at this way, the Padres folded early this year and got it over with.

Think 2007 & 2010.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Look at this way, the Padres folded early this year and got it over with.

Think 2007 & 2010.

Yes, those years they didn't realize how crappy they were until near the end of the season.

[Rich]

I don't get what's so complicated about this.

When a runner is forced to advance, he must complete his advance. So, batted ball, uncaught third strike -- R1 and R2 (as well as the BR and R3) must advance or they are liable to be forced out. BB, HBP -- only the BR and R3 must advance.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Exactly, just like on a walk-off hit. As soon as R3 touches home and the BR touches first, the game is over and R1 and R2 are of no consequence. Black had no grounds for protest, and frankly should have not grasped at straws just because his crappy team lost yet another game. Looked kind of silly.

JEA says on a walk off hit all the forced runners have to advance and touch the next base. This is not in the MLBUM or the rule though. I'm not sure where Evans came up with that but a lot of folks seem to e running with it.

Isn't that the Merkle play?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

JEA says on a walk off hit all the forced runners have to advance and touch the next base. This is not in the MLBUM or the rule though. I'm not sure where Evans came up with that but a lot of folks seem to e running with it.

Isn't that the Merkle play?

Yes it is the Merkle play. The rule is different for a walk-off walk or HBP. If the ball is hit, the "force is on" and being a forced third out would negate the run.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Yes it is the Merkle play. The rule is different for a walk-off walk or HBP. If the ball is hit, the "force is on" and being a forced third out would negate the run.

Not true. Here is what 4.09b says and its absolutely clear.

4.09b When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter runner has touched first base.

As mbryon stated earlier what the runner from 1st and 2nd do is irrelevant. They do not have to advance to the next base. Only the batter and scoring runner.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Not true. Here is what 4.09b says and its absolutely clear.



As mbryon stated earlier what the runner from 1st and 2nd do is irrelevant. They do not have to advance to the next base. Only the batter and scoring runner.

Not clear at all. It is clear that with the bases loaded, a walk or HBP allows each runner to advance one base without liability of being put out. BUT the game is not over UNTIL R3 touches home and B/R touches first. A batted ball is different since no run can score when a force out is the third out at any base. You see the situation often.... Grounder to third on over to second, on to the tenth tie game. The game is not over because the runners were forced and R3 touched home and B/R
touched first. The little matter of the 5-4 force negated the run and forces are not timing plays. If the (next) base or the runner (R1 or R2) is tagged before the runner touches the base, it is a force out. If it is the third out, no runs score. In the OP where R2 abandoned his attempt to advance to third he could "theoretically" be put out on appeal, but the run counted and the game ended before the appeal could be made.


In Merkle's Boner there were runners on first and third and Merkle did not advance to and touch second after an apparent game winning hit. Would it make any sense that the situation would be any different just because the bases were loaded??

[Larry1953]

Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.

If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Not clear at all. It is clear that with the bases loaded, a walk or HBP allows each runner to advance one base without liability of being put out. BUT the game is not over UNTIL R3 touches home and B/R touches first. A batted ball is different since no run can score when a force out is the third out at any base. You see the situation often.... Grounder to third on over to second, on to the tenth tie game. The game is not over because the runners were forced and R3 touched home and B/R
touched first. The little matter of the 5-4 force negated the run and forces are not timing plays. If the (next) base or the runner (R1 or R2) is tagged before the runner touches the base, it is a force out. If it is the third out, no runs score. In the OP where R2 abandoned his attempt to advance to third he could "theoretically" be put out on appeal, but the run counted and the game ended before the appeal could be made.


In Merkle's Boner there were runners on first and third and Merkle did not advance to and touch second after an apparent game winning hit. Would it make any sense that the situation would be any different just because the bases were loaded??

I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

[SanDiegoSteve]

...to Bob Jenkins RE: Last entry in recently closed thread...ROTFLMAO!!! Great post!

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.

Read 4.09(b) closely...it says the game is not over UNTIL.... Not WHEN. That rule is not meant to absolve the offense of being in jeopardy of force outs just because the bases are loaded. It says that B/R and R3 have to go through the motion of advancing to and touching the base. Just like a B/R has to touch all the bases after a HR and the pitcher (in OBR) has to throw the pitches for an IBB.