Pirates/Braves ending

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Joe Torre, an executive with MLB baseball disagrees with your assessment. His quote regarding the missed out is available online and has been shown numerous times on ESPN, CNN, and multiple local stations.

Oh, the umpire who made the call said that after seeing the replay, the runner was tagged on the shin. That sounds pretty definitive, but then again you know more than two MLB guys. LOL!

Just like Rich said, who gives a damn what Torre or any executive says that is trying to cover PR. If that was the case than there will never be IR when the Commissioner says he is not for it. And if you listen to Selig as well he makes it clear that if there is such a system it will be very limited. It might not involve plays like this that we are talking about.

And who cares what the umpire says now? I think he made that comment to appease people, because if this took place during the game and there was IR, I doubt the result would have changed if you needed conclusive evidence to change a call. Or there would have been a debate if that was a good change. The media tends to take these situations and complain when they do not get the result. There are many times in other sports when the IR did not overturn a call and the media went crazy. And in those sports I think it will be a lot easier to change calls than baseball will ever be able to do at least that is the case with out and safe calls.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And he also mentioned in that press release that he saw no need whatsoever for expanding replay to cover plays like this. I guess that overrides the opinion of, say, an Illinois based, amateur umpire on an online forum.

It's pretty despicable when you misrepresent what was realy said. If you want to do that, realize that it is easy to find the actual release on MLB.com

Here is what Joe's release actually said,

"Having been the beneficiary of calls like this and having been on the other end in my experience as a player and as a manager, I have felt that this has always been a part of our game. As a member of the Commissioner’s Special Committee for On-Field Matters, I have heard many discussions on umpiring and technology over the past two years, including both the pros and the cons of expanding replay. However, most in the game recognize that the human element always will be part of baseball and instant replay can never replace all judgment calls by umpires. Obviously, a play like this is going to spark a lot of conversation, and we will continue to consider all viewpoints in our ongoing discussions regarding officiating in baseball.
“We expect the best from our umpires, and an umpire would tell you he expects the best of himself. We have to continue to strive for accuracy, consistency and professionalism day in and day out.”

He said that instant replay can never replace all judgement calls by umpires, not that there is no need for it. Further, he stated that they will consider all viewpoints regarding ongoing discussions regarding officiating in baseball while...striving for accuracy and consistency. That would seem to indicate that they are looking at all avenues to protect the integrity of the game, the value of the business and the investments of those involved.

The beginning of the press release also stated that Meals admitted the bad call to Torre and the MLB front office. We have seen a number of critical calls being blown lately. Instant replay won't solve all but will definitely assist the field crew in many more. People worried about how long it would make NFL games and most can't imagine the game without it. In the end, MLB will protect the cash cow and the opinion of this Illinois amateur umpire will be vindicated. We have witnessed too many steps towards that end already.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just like Rich said, who gives a damn what Torre or any executive says that is trying to cover PR. If that was the case than there will never be IR when the Commissioner says he is not for it. And if you listen to Selig as well he makes it clear that if there is such a system it will be very limited. It might not involve plays like this that we are talking about.

And who cares what the umpire says now? I think he made that comment to appease people, because if this took place during the game and there was IR, I doubt the result would have changed if you needed conclusive evidence to change a call. Or there would have been a debate if that was a good change. The media tends to take these situations and complain when they do not get the result. There are many times in other sports when the IR did not overturn a call and the media went crazy. And in those sports I think it will be a lot easier to change calls than baseball will ever be able to do at least that is the case with out and safe calls.

Peace

Jeff,
Stop. Your posts are endlessly convoluted.

I have never stated that instant replay will fix all bad calls in baseball. No one expected it in professional football, basketball, hockey or soccer. About a decade ago some umpires complained about the huddles they saw taking place on NCAA and MiLB fields. When MLB adopted the "let's work to get the call right" attitude, some whined that the human element was going away from the game. Now, we see the LWTGTCR mentality prevalent on amateur fields across America. The game didn't suffer. It improved.

Meals admitted his mistake because it was very public and the MLB office expects professional demeanor from WUA members. I respect Meals immensely for owning up to it. I deplore those who harassed his family and the barstool jockeys who believe they could have done a better job that night. He is a terrific umpire who just showed the world that he is human. Meals did what many here would never do, admit a shortcoming. MLB will think far more of him for doing that rather than acting headstrong about a bad call.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I deplore those who harassed his family and the barstool jockeys who believe they could have done a better job that night.

How long before there's a 'Meals' version of this?


Doug Eddings Is A Douche: FireDougEddings.com

[zm1283]

For the record, I don't think Meals' call was the "Worst call in MLB history" as the fanboys keep saying, or even a bad call at that. Was it missed? Maybe, but in real time I can see how he didn't see a tag. As others have said, replay would probably show this as inconclusive.

As far as IR goes in MLB, I don't like it. I'm okay with it being used for boundary and fair/foul calls on home runs like it is now, but it just muddies things up otherwise. You can't change foul balls to fair, you can't change a catch to a no-catch with runners on base, etc. If MLB is going to implement replay for this stuff, the NFL might as well review every penalty, and the NBA better review every close foul (block/charge plays maybe) as well, because that is essentially what these people pushing for replay want on the baseball side.

Something the umpires also better push for is an ejection if the manager loses the challenge. You get one challenge per game. If you win the challenge, no more for the game. If you lose it, you are dumped.

These people that keep talking about how bad the umpiring has gotten are incredible stupid. Umpires have missed calls for 100+ years and the game is doing fine. HDTV and multiple camera angles are the only thing that have changed how umpires work. (As others have said in this thread)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Jeff,
Stop. Your posts are endlessly convoluted.

First of all I have a right to give an opinion about this or anything. If you do not like it, do not read them or do not come to this site. Then you will not have to worry about the nature of my posts. It is not like we interact during the season.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I have never stated that instant replay will fix all bad calls in baseball. No one expected it in professional football, basketball, hockey or soccer. About a decade ago some umpires complained about the huddles they saw taking place on NCAA and MiLB fields. When MLB adopted the "let's work to get the call right" attitude, some whined that the human element was going away from the game. Now, we see the LWTGTCR mentality prevalent on amateur fields across America. The game didn't suffer. It improved.

OK, but there are many examples that replay would not correct plays or give a better angle in baseball. Those other sports can put a camera on the goal line or goal to show if the ball went in the goal or a score was taking place. I also did not say the game would suffer, I said that many of these plays that people go crazy about will not be overturned if they take the model from other sports where you need conclusive evidence to make a ruling (like the Oklahoma at Oregon college football game several years ago). Even football has many problems with getting good angles on certain plays. And with the TV disparity that MLB has where the Yankees has a better TV deal than the Royals, you might find out that there is a inconsistency in the application or ability to show plays in one park compared to another. Football does not have this problem because they share revenue with TV coverage are almost the same from one game to another.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Meals admitted his mistake because it was very public and the MLB office expects professional demeanor from WUA members. I respect Meals immensely for owning up to it. I deplore those who harassed his family and the barstool jockeys who believe they could have done a better job that night. He is a terrific umpire who just showed the world that he is human. Meals did what many here would never do, admit a shortcoming. MLB will think far more of him for doing that rather than acting headstrong about a bad call.

Again, this is something that was done because of the nature of the coverage. If ESPN did not go over this play 100 times, there would have been no comment about this call. I have seen many missed calls this season and did not see any statement from the umpire. This is not about him as an umpire, but there was a time when they did not give this kind of access to the media about calls. And other leagues do not allow their officials to directly comment about situations they are directly involved in. This is all about PR and I am sure he was encouraged by his bosses to talk about this play to the media where other leagues would just have someone from the league discuss these plays and keep the individual from making personal statements. And I also think a lot of the fuel he is given personally with his address exposed are because he commented on this play. Torre and others from the league should talk about this, not the umpire involved. And that has nothing to do with being headstrong.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

If MLB REALLY CARES about the quality of umpiring then before expanding IR why not INVEST in their product.

Why not take a more active role in umpire development etc. Until you make it to the BIGS which is next to impossible, you earn peanuts. A manager at Walmart makes more then the Crew Chief at Triple A.

In a nutshell, you are not attracting the "best of the best" with the current process in place. MLB leaves umpire development up to someone else.

IR would simply be a "baindaid" to the REAL problem.

Invest in your product, and see what happens.

Pete Booth

[MrUmpire]

Despite the assertions of those who should be MLB umpires but aren't, this was not a gross miss. It took several views of replays from different angles to find the definitive view of a light tag of the pant leg. This will not be remembered as a huge issue.

Umpires have always missed calls. Today's umpires are no worse than those of the 50's or 60's. The difference is that today we have a permanent record of verification of their missed calls. In the 50's and 60's we had just our memories of our opinions.

None of the proposals being considered by ML for instant replay include tag plays, and none of the parties to any agreement: owners, players' union, managers - have voiced support of such a move.

Instant replay will be expanded when it can be done efficiently, timely and controllably. The WUA concept of adding a fifth umpire to each crew and including IR in the rotation is the most attractive to me, personally, but promoting 17 umpires to the ML at the same time may result in diluting the talent level.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

If MLB REALLY CARES about the quality of umpiring then before expanding IR why not INVEST in their product.

Why not take a more active role in umpire development etc. Until you make it to the BIGS which is next to impossible, you earn peanuts. A manager at Walmart makes more then the Crew Chief at Triple A.

In a nutshell, you are not attracting the "best of the best" with the current process in place. MLB leaves umpire development up to someone else.

IR would simply be a "baindaid" to the REAL problem.

Invest in your product, and see what happens.

Pete Booth

The kids are well trained, supervised and evaluated through the minors. A larger issue is the lack of serious continuing education and training once an umpire makes the majors. Instead of just working spring training games, ML umpires should have a rigorous course in mechanics and rules every pre-season.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all I have a right to give an opinion about this or anything. If you do not like it, do not read them or do not come to this site. Then you will not have to worry about the nature of my posts. It is not like we interact during the season.

You have every right to your opinion. Try to have just one in a sentence though. You cloud every issue with non-sequitors and irrelevancies that it makes it difficult to read them. I'm not the first to tell you this. Enjoy posting; you've done it thousands of times on numerous boards to know that your musings are often met with eye rolls and contempt. I just offered advice on how you can clean them up for forums, that is all. I have no problem with you disagreeing as long as it is focused.

OK, but there are many examples that replay would not correct plays or give a better angle in baseball. Those other sports can put a camera on the goal line or goal to show if the ball went in the goal or a score was taking place. I also did not say the game would suffer, I said that many of these plays that people go crazy about will not be overturned if they take the model from other sports where you need conclusive evidence to make a ruling (like the Oklahoma at Oregon college football game several years ago). Even football has many problems with getting good angles on certain plays. And with the TV disparity that MLB has where the Yankees has a better TV deal than the Royals, you might find out that there is a inconsistency in the application or ability to show plays in one park compared to another. Football does not have this problem because they share revenue with TV coverage are almost the same from one game to another.

Seriously, what part of "instant replay will not remedy every bad call" is a puzzle to you? No one insists that it will fix all calls.

TV deals have nothing to do with replay, it has to do with revenue generation. Every ball park has enough camera operators and remote capablilities already to handle future changes.

Again, this is something that was done because of the nature of the coverage. If ESPN did not go over this play 100 times, there would have been no comment about this call.

Stop. You are once again writing about something you know nothing about. Thousands of Pirates fans were watching and listening to that game. The TV commentator went nuts after the call and he didn't even have the replay yet. When he did, the radio booth guys next door could see it and added to the controversy. ESPN had nothing to do with it.

I have seen many missed calls this season and did not see any statement from the umpire. This is not about him as an umpire, but there was a time when they did not give this kind of access to the media about calls.

Google it. There are several umpires who have addressed issues regarding blown calls this year.

And other leagues do not allow their officials to directly comment about situations they are directly involved in. This is all about PR and I am sure he was encouraged by his bosses to talk about this play to the media where other leagues would just have someone from the league discuss these plays and keep the individual from making personal statements.

Irrelevant. MLB does.

And I also think a lot of the fuel he is given personally with his address exposed are because he commented on this play. Torre and others from the league should talk about this, not the umpire involved. And that has nothing to do with being headstrong.

Seriously? He commented on the play after the game, when a pool reporter asked if he had seen the replay. Like Jim Joyce after the Gallaraga call, Meals stepped up and admitted his mistake. It was classy and commendable. The goofs that published his address and phone numbers, harrassed his family and threatened him are typical mouth breathing, knuckledraggers. If they got mad because he admitted his mistake then you are correct, but most educated souls think otherwise.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

You have every right to your opinion. Try to have just one in a sentence though. You cloud every issue with non-sequitors and irrelevancies that it makes it difficult to read them. I'm not the first to tell you this. Enjoy posting; you've done it thousands of times on numerous boards to know that your musings are often met with eye rolls and contempt. I just offered advice on how you can clean them up for forums, that is all. I have no problem with you disagreeing as long as it is focused.

Honestly Mike, I really do not care what you think of my postings. Do not read them. I think I am doing just fine on and off this board with my opinions. And it appears my positions on this seem to be more in line with many here, unlike yourself who tends to piss many off every time you post. Not saying I am loved, but I have many that see things in a similar way.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Seriously, what part of "instant replay will not remedy every bad call" is a puzzle to you? No one insists that it will fix all calls.

Interesting as I never said I was puzzled by this. If you listen to the MLB brass, they are not going to add it for plays we are talking about. That means you have to listen to all of what they say, not just the part that fits your position in this thread.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

TV deals have nothing to do with replay, it has to do with revenue generation. Every ball park has enough camera operators and remote capablilities already to handle future changes.

That is interesting. I guess it would not matter what company decides to cover the games and how much they put into the broadcast. MLB might have 30+ different contracts to cover games and the NFL or NBA has one or two. The NFL does not have the same game covered by two different companies for the local broadcasts. I think the NFL can and has controlled what they allow for their replay system.

Also the TV broadcasts of this game did not have the same angles of this play. They had to be put together by ESPN to show multiple angles to dispute that this call was incorrect.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Stop. You are once again writing about something you know nothing about. Thousands of Pirates fans were watching and listening to that game. The TV commentator went nuts after the call and he didn't even have the replay yet. When he did, the radio booth guys next door could see it and added to the controversy. ESPN had nothing to do with it.

You are right ESPN did not show all the angles on SportsCenter that if you were watching a particular broadcast, you would not have seen the other feeds of the game. How in the world would I know that at all? Hmmmmm, maybe because the folks at ESPN made that clear to everyone watching SportsCenter or the First Take people the next day when IR was discussed as a remedy to "get this play right." Of course I have no idea what I am talking about. I guess you were in Atlanta and Pittsburgh at the same time. Or better yet you watched both games at the same time and you are the only one that can know this.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Google it. There are several umpires who have addressed issues regarding blown calls this year.

Can you read? I did not say there was never an umpire that commented on a play, I said that there were many that were not addressed at all either way. And if you read the comments, it sounded like he was put up to it by a boss, not something he said on his own. If he clearly thought that he missed it, he would not have justified it by suggesting that only a part of the pants moved. I guess the only reason pants move on a sliding player is because someone touches them. No, not because the player was sliding or that someone that moves an object by them that nothing around them moved. I threw my arm past something hanging in my closet and the cloths moved, I guess I had to touch them?

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Irrelevant. MLB does.

And maybe one of the reasons the MLB is considered to have some of the worst officiating programs than the other major pro sports. And it is relevant because there are not many media people that only cover one sport are commenting on this issue.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Seriously? He commented on the play after the game, when a pool reporter asked if he had seen the replay. Like Jim Joyce after the Gallaraga call, Meals stepped up and admitted his mistake. It was classy and commendable. The goofs that published his address and phone numbers, harrassed his family and threatened him are typical mouth breathing, knuckledraggers. If they got mad because he admitted his mistake then you are correct, but most educated souls think otherwise.

You must did not see those first comments. He did not just say "I blew it." He said he did not see a tag. Then the next day his comments were different and more descriptive and talking about pant leg moving. He did not see he clearly saw a tag or that there is no way he was correct. And if someone was admitting a mistake, he certainly did a lot of justification for why called what he did.

Oh you are right, only those that agreed with you are the most educated. I did not see people on ESPN today not only mock the "apology" or say that they would not have changed the call if they used the NFL model. But then again you do not know anything about other sports, so how are you more educated. Those “most educated only said “The ball beat the runner” and talked about the expected call, but you love that type of discussion I see.

Peace

[Ref'sProudPapa]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Personally, I don't care about this play at all, with the exception that eliminating the expected call has finally reached this level -- where a MLB umpire is willing to make a "best guess" on a call where he got straight lined a bit rather than take all the pieces of evidence in front of him and realize that the ball beat the runner by a mile and missing an actual tag here is 10000000000x worse than calling R3 out on a swipe tag that *might* have missed.

How many of us would've given a quick little fist pump on our field and gone on to the next inning and not thought twice about it?

Curious -- just a question. (First post on OF, by the way -- hello.) Is it the same analysis if the score had been 2-1 and the safe call extends rather than ends the game?

This all makes a lot of sense to me if Meals acknowleged he was guessing. (Maybe he did -- I didn't see all the post-game stuff.) If he wasn't, though -- if he felt he got a great look and saw it right -- the fact that replay shows he was wrong doesn't make it a guess. Just a missed call, right?

[MrUmpire]

Meals didn't begin guessing until after the game. He called what he believed he saw and what he believed to be the correct call.

[Dakota]

OK, it seems to be generally agreed - even by at least some media - that had replay been in use for a call of this nature, that the available camera feeds would not have been conclusive and therefore would not have changed the call.

So, why is it that this call is being used as further ammunition in favor of replay expansion in baseball?

[REFANDUMP]

Horrible Call. Period.