Pirates/Braves ending

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Imagine the outrage then! "How can you miss this call with replay?!?!?!"

Exactly.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

The replays clearly showed a missed tag....when the tag was not missed? HUH?

Yes... did you see any of these replays? There is obvious air between glove and player from every angle that was immediately available - there was a singular angle from foul right field that probably showed the moment of the tag best, but that tag was blocked by the catcher's leg.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Potentially spectacular? Making this call is the equivalent of saying that a piece of thread did not touch the needle as it passed through the eye.

Maybe I am just too old school (I never thought I'd say that), but to me, this is, without a doubt, picking up the poop-covered end of the stick for no good reason. There's one thing to have courage to make the right call, but when the ball beats the runner by *this much*, the call had better be 100% defensibly right. In other words, the question that needs to be asked here is: Prove to me he missed the tag. I agree with the announcers (another first) -- unless there's clear daylight, I'm calling the runner out.

I compare this play to a play Davey Phillips had at the plate during the 1987 World Series at Minnesota. According to Phillips' autobiography, he had a play at the plate in Minnesota. Minnesota was on offense. The Minnesota runner came in and the throw beat him to the plate by a mile (like last night). Phillips called him out. There was no argument from the runner, any coaches or the manager. About a minute later (during the commercial break) the whole stadium starts booing. Apparently, the replay showed that the runner's foot touched the plate a second or two ahead of the actual tag. As Phillips wrote (and I paraphrase), if I had called him "safe" I would have had to eject half the St. Louis dugout. As it was, he didn't hear a peep at anytime from anyone about the call (other than the fans' booing).

Now the umpires have no safety valve. If Meals' had gone old school and called him "out" because the ball beat the runner by a mile, but the tag was actually missed by an inch or two...then it would have be called "the worst call ever," or "a horrible way to end a classic game." So now, because of HD replays he (umpires) have to ignore what worked so well for 100+ years and try to determine if F2 actually did just nick the runner with the tag, or if F2 did, in fact, just barely miss the tag.

I'm am convinced from my conversations with various persons that a majority of MLB umpires would vote FOR instant replay. They are just opposed to a college football system where someone in the booth who is not a part of the crew overrules them. They want to be able to correct their own mistakes (more like the NFL replay system). Call it a pride thing.

[Toadman15241]

MLB thought that the tag was conclusive on the replays. I think it's time that some on this board either (a) get HD or (b) stop driving.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Toadman15241

MLB thought that the tag was conclusive on the replays. I think it's time that some on this board either (a) get HD or (b) stop driving.

I do not care what MLB says. They are trying to cover their *** and make everyone responsible but them. And that is pretty much all I have had is HD TVs. That is all I watch and there was no angle that showed conclusively the tag, just like there are not a lot of conclusive replays in other sports where there is no change to many calls.

Peace

[rngrck]

Just look at the runner, did he think or act like he was safe?? A tuff call to end a game like that.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I didn't play baseball (golf was a Spring sport in Ohio when I was in H.S.) but Mark, Jr., and Andy (my younger son, but doesn't officiate basketball or umpire baseball, but Junior and I are working on him) both played baseball.

They both do not understand the expected call. Why? Because they feel that since MLB players are the best players in the world, they believe that they should be held to the highest standard of play. Just because the throw beat the runner, doesn't been the runner should be called out. The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag. Another play that bugs them is call the Runner out on a force at 2B to start a DP when the Fielder is only in the zip code of the bag; I am sure we have seen that call when the Fielder wasn't even in the same area code as the bag.

I guess I am saying screw the expected call: Call it correctly the first time and if idiots want to act like idiots, let them and take care of business.

MTD, Sr.

[DG]

OUT, OUT, OUT, play on. I don't remember ever seeing a blown call that was so easy to make correctly. This one made national news tonight, not just sports channels. Not only is out the correct call, it is the expected call. My wife pointed this one out to me, she saw it on O'Reilly show for heaven's sake.

[dileonardoja]

Only two post out of all these about moving the bat? To me that was his critical error. It broke his concentration and he failed to get in a better position.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Wrong. Every replay that was being shown last night - both on ESPN highlights and on MLB.com - CLEARLY showed the tag missing the runner. Multiple angles at multiple speeds. It was nearly half a day later before anyone produced a video that began convincing the readers here of the missed call. If all the umpires had were the ESPN replays to deal with at the game, this would not have been overturned.

Imagine the outrage then! "How can you miss this call with replay?!?!?!"

Joe Torre, an executive with MLB baseball disagrees with your assessment. His quote regarding the missed out is available online and has been shown numerous times on ESPN, CNN, and multiple local stations.

Oh, the umpire who made the call said that after seeing the replay, the runner was tagged on the shin. That sounds pretty definitive, but then again you know more than two MLB guys. LOL!

[MikeStrybel]

It's pretty funny that some whine about the what people would say if we had MLB instant replay and the call was still missed.

I imagine that it would be the same as what happens in the NFL, NCAA football, NBA and NHL. Some will keep whining about how their team was robbed while others will applaud the second look.

The fact that technology is there to assist in theseMLB games but ignored is silly.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Joe Torre, an executive with MLB baseball disagrees with your assessment. His quote regarding the missed out is available online and has been shown numerous times on ESPN, CNN, and multiple local stations.

Oh, the umpire who made the call said that after seeing the replay, the runner was tagged on the shin. That sounds pretty definitive, but then again you know more than two MLB guys. LOL!

Who cares what Joe Torre says? Isn't it funny that all these "executives" are usually former managers or general managers who wouldn't know anything about umpiring if it bit them on the a$$?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Who cares what Joe Torre says? Isn't it funny that all these "executives" are usually former managers or general managers who wouldn't know anything about umpiring if it bit them on the a$$?

MLB executives who are former players and managers are much better suited to offer opinions about the game than those from the outside (very few of them and for good reason). I'm pretty sure that MLB values his opinion more than say, a Wisconsin based, amateur umpire on an online forum. So, to answer your first question, MLB does. And for your second, no, it isn't funny because your assertion isn't true. This isn't about umpiring mechanics, it regards a bad call and the need for review of such important decisions. Torre did not comment about Meals being out of position or his training, he spoke on what he and the MLB front office saw as a missed call in a critical situation. End of story.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

MLB executives who are former players and managers are much better suited to offer opinions about the game than those from the outside (very few of them and for good reason). I'm pretty sure that MLB values his opinion more than say, a Wisconsin based, amateur umpire on an online forum. So, to answer your first question, MLB does. And for your second, no, it isn't funny because your assertion isn't true. This isn't about umpiring mechanics, it regards a bad call and the need for review of such important decisions. Torre did not comment about Meals being out of position or his training, he spoke on what he and the MLB front office saw as a missed call in a critical situation. End of story.

And he also mentioned in that press release that he saw no need whatsoever for expanding replay to cover plays like this. I guess that overrides the opinion of, say, an Illinois based, amateur umpire on an online forum.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I

They both do not understand the expected call. Why? Because they feel that since MLB players are the best players in the world, they believe that they should be held to the highest standard of play. Just because the throw beat the runner, doesn't been the runner should be called out. The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag. Another play that bugs them is call the Runner out on a force at 2B to start a DP when the Fielder is only in the zip code of the bag; I am sure we have seen that call when the Fielder wasn't even in the same area code as the bag.

IMO, they do not understand the expected call because it was not explained to them properly.

You said

The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag.

The aforementioned is not a valid definition of the expected call. We are not talking bang bang or Close plays.

here's the expected call.

1. Runner is going to be out by a good margin
2. QUALITY throw
3. Tag where it it supposed to be.

Example:

R1 stealing

The throw beats R1 by some 6-10 feet. F4/F6 has glove down near base = OUT. As they say in Brooklyn NY "Forget about" the actual tag the runner is OUT.

The aforementioned is the way the game was called (and hardly a peep from either side) UNTIL the advent of Super Slo Mo Replays and differerent angles and the play being reviewed a zillion times.

Same with the neighborhood. We are talking about a play in which the runner is out by a mile. Why have F4/F6 risk injury - no need to. As long as they are in the vicinity of the bag and the throw is a quality throw used to be good enough.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pete Booth