Fixing MLB

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hey, if you're going to shorten the season and extend the playoffs, why not have a "regular season", and then instead of Divisional Playoffs, have the two winners (NL & AL) just play a "best of 50" World Series? Then have all the teams share the revenue...

JJ

And let's hope they're tied at 25 each... then we can have the wonderful advertisement: "THIS SATURDAY... 8 PM EASTERN... THE GAME THAT REALLY COUNTS!!!"

Let's not forget that they'll get a week off before the deciding game, too.

[Texas Aggie]

Measured an NFL game lately, or NHL? A 3+ hour event is very likely.

Yeah, with a 20 minute half time, at least 6, and as many as 18, timeouts -- not including TV, change of possession, scoring, etc. Take away the planned dead time and the actual on field dead time for an NFL game is less than 30 minutes. You reach that in the 3rd inning of MLB.

Face it: even for my generation (~X) baseball is BORING. The game was perfect for my Dad's generation -- one who grew up either without TV or got it in their mid- to late- childhood. Nothing else to do on a Saturday afternoon for decades. Last 25-30 years pretty well changed all that.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Yeah, with a 20 minute half time, at least 6, and as many as 18, timeouts -- not including TV, change of possession, scoring, etc. Take away the planned dead time and the actual on field dead time for an NFL game is less than 30 minutes. You reach that in the 3rd inning of MLB.

Face it: even for my generation (~X) baseball is BORING. The game was perfect for my Dad's generation -- one who grew up either without TV or got it in their mid- to late- childhood. Nothing else to do on a Saturday afternoon for decades. Last 25-30 years pretty well changed all that.

Hence, my ADD comments. It is a different culture now. And, the misconception that there is no "dead" time in football, basketball, or hockey. It is there but many choose not to see it. This pretty much sums up everything. It is the pace many are living at and don't want to watch something that takes its time to develop and finish.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Hence, my ADD comments. It is a different culture now. And, the misconception that there is no "dead" time in football, basketball, or hockey. It is there but many choose not to see it. This pretty much sums up everything. It is the pace many are living at and don't want to watch something that takes its time to develop and finish.

Why does it have to be about ADD? Maybe the sport is just not appealing. There are people that do not like to watch Soccer or the World Cup and there is much more action in that sport than any other I can think of. It is not about ADD, it is about appeal. When baseball was the National Pastime, there was not TV and sports like Boxing was something the nation paid attention to. Both were heavily followed on the radio. I bet without looking, hardly anyone could name the Heavyweight champion in any division and I bet that the casual fan could not name 5 players on each WS team. This has more to do with the public have moved on to watch and focus on other things. Football is just more appealing. It works better on TV and the media spent all summer talking about a free agent in a sport and they finally played a game last night. And the average person probably would not know who Cliff Lee if he walked into their house. But they could identify some player that is not even that famous and they wear a helmet. It is just a different era and the rules should change just like any other sport that wants to stay relevant. And if they don't then they will have more people watch NFL and NBA games during the WS. And I will hardly watch much of the series because I have other things to do just at the time the games are being played. Baseball is just not appointment TV anymore like it probably once was.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why does it have to be about ADD? Maybe the sport is just not appealing. There are people that do not like to watch Soccer or the World Cup and there is much more action in that sport than any other I can think of. It is not about ADD, it is about appeal. When baseball was the National Pastime, there was not TV and sports like Boxing was something the nation paid attention to. Both were heavily followed on the radio. I bet without looking, hardly anyone could name the Heavyweight champion in any division and I bet that the casual fan could not name 5 players on each WS team. This has more to do with the public have moved on to watch and focus on other things. Football is just more appealing. It works better on TV and the media spent all summer talking about a free agent in a sport and they finally played a game last night.

Rut you are "right-on"

I was listening to the radio and one of the broadcasters mentioned that "back in the day" Baseball was number 1 followed by Boxing and believe it or not Horse - Racing (at least in Calif and NY) Football was 4th on the list at best UNTIL the Giants / Colts Over-time game which was the "spring-board" to put the NFL "on the map"

The NFL commissioners most notably Pete Rosell were visionaries and did a really good marketing job making football a NATIONAL sport. That's where baseball went wrong.

Baseballs downfall was the firing of Fay Vincent a "TRUE" Commissioner and putting in "one of their own" in Bud Sileg. Other then the fans of a particlar team like Yankee Fans for the most part No one watches baseball anymore.

Look at the Yankees / BOSOX series. One year you have the Yankee fans "hating" Johnny Damon and the next year "loving" him. Again another major drawback of baseball. That's equivalent of Dennis Potvin (NHL - NY Islanders) being trading to the NY Rangers (NHL). If any one follows hockey they know Ranger fans "hated" Dennis Potvin.

Today in baseball it's quite common. The player that you "hated" is now a member of YOUR team.

Also, baseball is boring especially the Yankee Bosox games which last 4 hours or so.

All in all baseball is a Regional Sport with the owners of the small market teams like the Pirates simply pocketing the money and NOT investing in the team. In a way you can't blame them because even if they did invest the money in the team they still could not compete with the other BIG market teams.

The Yankees are also what's wrong with baseball. They set the bar so high that other teams cannot compete for Free agents. 2 yrs. ago they got CC, Teshera and Burnett.

The NBA is following suit as Mega stars are teaming up together leaving the league "barren" At least Commissioner Stern has the "guts" to mention that the NBA needs to contract to make the league more competitive and attractive.

"Back in the day" not only did I know the members of my team but I knew many players on the "other" teams as well. As you say how many people really KNOW or would recognize Cliff Lee? However, most KNOW and would recognize Peyton Manning or Tom Brady in a heartbeat.

Football is KING by a HUGE margin. I bet the Steelers / Saints game on NBC's SNF will "destroy" the ratings on Fox which is carrying the Giants / Rangers series. Game 4 of the series is scheduled at the same time slot as the football game.

Pete Booth

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Football is KING by a HUGE margin. I bet the Steelers / Saints game on NBC's SNF will "destroy" the ratings on Fox which is carrying the Giants / Rangers series. Game 4 of the series is scheduled at the same time slot as the football game.

Pete Booth

Wow, I thought the NFL took off for that Sunday of the World Series? That game will likely be much more interesting than the World Series unless it is an elimination game. And even then it might not be that interesting.

Peace

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I bet without looking, ... the casual fan could not name 5 players on each WS team. This has more to do with the public have moved on to watch and focus on other things.

I think it has to do with the fact that there's more teams. In 1939 (the first year baseball was on television), there were 16 teams in two leagues. Now, we've got 30 teams in 6 divisions. Add the fact that players move from team-to-team now -- in the past, players -- especially marquee players -- stayed with the same team. "The Curse of the Bambino" would be 5th page news in the Sports section.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Today in baseball it's quite common. The player that you "hated" is now a member of YOUR team.

It's the same in every sport. How many Vikings fans hated Favre when he "retired," then signed with the Jets? How many of them instantly turned to fans when the Vikings signed him? How about Lebron James? Do you honestly think Heats fan liked him before he signed with them?

It's not fair to use this argument, as it happens in EVERY sport in America. Yes, I agree that baseball has taken a sharp downturn, but not for that reason.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why does it have to be about ADD? Maybe the sport is just not appealing. There are people that do not like to watch Soccer or the World Cup and there is much more action in that sport than any other I can think of. It is not about ADD, it is about appeal. When baseball was the National Pastime, there was not TV and sports like Boxing was something the nation paid attention to. Both were heavily followed on the radio. I bet without looking, hardly anyone could name the Heavyweight champion in any division and I bet that the casual fan could not name 5 players on each WS team. This has more to do with the public have moved on to watch and focus on other things. Football is just more appealing. It works better on TV and the media spent all summer talking about a free agent in a sport and they finally played a game last night. And the average person probably would not know who Cliff Lee if he walked into their house. But they could identify some player that is not even that famous and they wear a helmet. It is just a different era and the rules should change just like any other sport that wants to stay relevant. And if they don't then they will have more people watch NFL and NBA games during the WS. And I will hardly watch much of the series because I have other things to do just at the time the games are being played. Baseball is just not appointment TV anymore like it probably once was.

Peace

Everything I have said is being reiterated in this one post. Word it how you want to so you will accept the reason. But, it still comes down to "What people are willing to sit through and watch". The down time is still the same. Even in soccer, the ball is passed around until someone goes for the shot. The "dead" time is passing the ball around until a score attempt is made. Perception of "action" is everything. ALL sports have "dead" time. What the viewer perceives as that time is PERCEPTION.

"Appeal" and "ADD" are pretty interchangeable in this context. Some movies don't have "appeal" but some watch those movies while others don't. Same concept here only some refuse to accept it and move on with their lives. Think about it. I could watch "The Green Mile" even though it was about 4 hours long. However, I can't sit through some movies and they are only 2 1/2 hours b/c I didn't want to watch them. They lasted too long for me. Same here. You don't want to watch a 3 hour baseball game, I do. So I have no issues with it.

I think yawetag makes an excellent point about the number of teams/divisions as well. Make too many and no one can keep up. Boxing did the same thing and now no one knows who is champion of which division. However, in the UFC, they have about 5 and everyone can keep up with that. And, I don't watch most of it but I can keep up b/c there are only a few to keep up with.

I did not like DS play when it came out and still don't. NCAA has this same issue in the spring. Many watch for their favorite team in the top 64 and lose interest for a while if their team isn't in it anymore. Then, when it dwindles down to the top 16 or even 4, those not watching watch b/c the number involved is less. But, again, it comes down to "ADD". I have it when it comes to the NCAA tournament.

You don't want to pay attention to the game b/c of its duration and "lack of pace" which you don't like. Then, don't watch it and don't complain about it when it happens. I like the game just fine the way it is. Have since I was 7. And, I don't want it to change. It is a great sport for ME.

And, I don't think marketing has anything to do with it. It is just a personal preference for each individual. You either watch it and like it or you don't. Marketing isn't going to change the length of time the game takes. No amount of marketing is going to change that. Maybe not forming "dynasties" will help but not really. Fans of a team will watch regardless of who their team is playing.

I think the playoffs are too long and drawn out with DS play. The same teams are being displayed for about 4 weeks to everyone. And, now there is discussion of stretching the playoffs. That is a major reason why people are bored with the playoffs. They are lasting too long with the same teams. Football and NCAA don't have this. Each day the sports play, the opposition is different.

I felt like creating a PeteBooth post with this one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Everything I have said is being reiterated in this one post. Word it how you want to so you will accept the reason. But, it still comes down to "What people are willing to sit through and watch". The down time is still the same. Even in soccer, the ball is passed around until someone goes for the shot. The "dead" time is passing the ball around until a score attempt is made. Perception of "action" is everything. ALL sports have "dead" time. What the viewer perceives as that time is PERCEPTION.

I am not trying to continue to debate this time. But Soccer if understood is considered one of the most action packed games. I was at the World Cup this summer and it was clear that there was a lot of action and a lot to watch. TV does not do that game justice as there is so much of the field/pitch that the public does not see only on TV. Games are much more exciting in person or on HDTV. But then again the world watches that game on a bigger scale than anything that is seen in this country. Much more passion by the average person in that sport. The entire country talks about their team playing in the World Cup or a major tournament. I do not see any real equivelant in our American Sports. Maybe the Super Bowl, but that is a one day event.

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I did not like DS play when it came out and still don't. NCAA has this same issue in the spring. Many watch for their favorite team in the top 64 and lose interest for a while if their team isn't in it anymore. Then, when it dwindles down to the top 16 or even 4, those not watching watch b/c the number involved is less. But, again, it comes down to "ADD". I have it when it comes to the NCAA tournament.

Really? I think the NCAA Men's Tournament has more viewers than just about any major sporting event that last over an extended period of time other than the NFL Playoffs and if you want to include the Super Bowl. CBS paid more money to have the rights for the Super Bowl than just about any other national contract. And it is a month long event. And you have a passionate fan base when people that went to those schools are watching and even communities those kids came from are playing. As well as exciting finishes and seeing an underdog beat a big boy in that tournament. I know people that take off work or watch online games in the middle of the day. Do they do that for baseball?

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

You don't want to pay attention to the game b/c of its duration and "lack of pace" which you don't like. Then, don't watch it and don't complain about it when it happens. I like the game just fine the way it is. Have since I was 7. And, I don't want it to change. It is a great sport for ME.

I will comment on the game all I want to. If you do not like others saying why they do not like the sport as much, you are just going to have to deal with it. And this thread was asking what can be done to fix the game. I think the game needs fixing and how long the game takes is directly involved in what goes on inbetween pitches and how long it takes for a batter to get back to the box. Something needs to be done or the dial will change (showing my age).

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

And, I don't think marketing has anything to do with it. It is just a personal preference for each individual. You either watch it and like it or you don't. Marketing isn't going to change the length of time the game takes. No amount of marketing is going to change that. Maybe not forming "dynasties" will help but not really. Fans of a team will watch regardless of who their team is playing.

That is fine. But if the public has no idea who the top player is at a big time position that is a problem. It is really a problem if you want someone to watch your game and they cannnot even identify who the stars are. There are more stars than A-Rod and Jeter. You obviously not selling the game to the right people and you are not making it viable for the kids to watch by playing games 12:00am before the game is over on a school day. Again the game starts tonight on a school day and will not end early enough for most of the kids to watch. You better market something if you want them to stay up or their parents to allow them to stay up.

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I think the playoffs are too long and drawn out with DS play. The same teams are being displayed for about 4 weeks to everyone. And, now there is discussion of stretching the playoffs. That is a major reason why people are bored with the playoffs. They are lasting too long with the same teams.

And you do not think marketing has anything to do with this at all? Someone at MLB thinks something is wrong or they would not bring in the idea.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Everything I have said is being reiterated in this one post. Word it how you want to so you will accept the reason. But, it still comes down to "What people are willing to sit through and watch". The down time is still the same. Even in soccer, the ball is passed around until someone goes for the shot. The "dead" time is passing the ball around until a score attempt is made. Perception of "action" is everything. ALL sports have "dead" time. What the viewer perceives as that time is PERCEPTION.

Check out the attached link which lists the Nielson ratings for the World Series.


http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/11/10...-phillies/1379


Bottom Line - People are NOT watching baseball anymore. Marketing DOES play an important role and the NFL prooves it. As mentioned the NFL was NO -where near baseball "back in the day" and now it's KING

WHY! MARKETING

You cannot sell your product without it.

As Rut said other then Jeter and AROD what other baseball star(s) is a "household word" In football there are plenty of them.

Baseball needs fixing.

Pete Booth

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

As Rut said other then Jeter and AROD what other baseball star(s) is a "household word" In football there are plenty of them.

Baseball needs fixing.

Pete Booth

Favre, Adrian Peterson, TO, Ocho Cincho (not even there real or original names), Tebow, Drew Brees, Ray Lewis, Big Ben, Vince Young, Payton Manning, Eli Manning, Reggie Bush, Randy Moss and Tom Brady. I could go on and on too. We know who the person that is on the cover of Madden Football (the highest selling video game). Most people do not even know what the MLB video game is or cares who is on the cover. And this is a sport with helmets and their faces being covered. There is more talk about Tom Brady's hair than there is about Cliff Lee or Halladay pitching ability. Football has 53 guys on each roster and baseball has only 25 for most of the season. We know what colleges a football player is in and the NFL even moved their draft to a Thursday and it had better ratings than many NBA playoff games.

It is all about the marketing.

Peace

[GA Umpire]

1. I think you miss the point when I say "many". I am NOT saying "all". I said I am one of those people and there ARE many others like that. They quit watching after their team is eliminated. I did NOT say "all" stop watching and I did NOT say "most". Again, NCAA tournament and NFL playoffs, each game features 2 DIFFERENT teams playing each other each day. The playoffs feature the SAME 2 each game and is overly drawn out. Many can attest to that b/c many were/are against the DS now. Many, not most and not all and I am one of them. I don't even watch until it gets to the LCS.

2. I can go on and on with names as well. Why, b/c I want to watch the game. Could it be b/c I like watching it and you don't? Maybe. But, I can do the same so who cares how many you can name off. People can do the same for Soccer, Basketball, NASCAR, and even bull riding. Why? B/c that is what they are into.

3. Marketing won't change a thing if YOU don't want to watch it. If CC becomes a household name, it won't change any viewers if the viewers don't want to sit through 3 hours of it. Marketing helps but only to a certain extent.

4. This comment "I will comment on the game all I want to. If you do not like others saying why they do not like the sport as much, you are just going to have to deal with it." is ridiculous at the least. What you quoted has nothing to do with this at all. And, I said nothing of the sort like this. Not even in what you quoted. I never said anything about those who "complain" about the game. Watch it, don't watch it. Comment, don't comment. I don't care.

5. Marketing helps to draw attention but is not the final answer. I can agree to "when" the games should start to help keep from losing viewers at 12 am. But, if a viewer(regardless of how much marketing is done) has no interest to watch a 3 hour game, then it doesn't matter if it started at 3 pm.

6. Everything you say about the football players, I know nothing about. WHY? B/c I don't care to watch it or know their names. WHY? B/c that is my PERSONAL preference. Which is the MAIN problem and at least, I am acknowledging that. Others on this thread seem to be avoiding that issue they seem to have with baseball games. In fact, I know of maybe half of the ones you listed. I couldn't care less for any of them. WHY? PERSONAL preference and that I like baseball more. NOT b/c of marketing.

7. Most of this, if not all of it, is a personal preference. Bottom line. Either you like it or you don't. Kids know about the game. Adults know about it as well. They know where they can go to watch it. It isn't a kept secret. Either you can sit through the game or you can't. Again, marketing helps but won't change a person's PERSONAL preference.

8. Oh, and they seem to be doing pretty well. As long as people watch, what is there to fix? TBS and FOX carried the games. Paid a lot of money for them too, I'm sure. Seems like there is a lot of money being made and is keeping the game on the TV. It appears they have been doing well. So, what is there to fix? Plenty of "dials" are staying where these companies want them to be. Wonder why? Many, not most or all, want the game on TV and are watching it.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by grunewar

This article suggests, if you're going to expand the playoffs......shorten the regular season. And so it goes.

And it is what is, just a suggestion. I really don't think owners in a playoff race, whether they make it or not, would want a shorter season. It would make for less revenue and a decreased chance of making the playoffs.

Besides it's been a 162 game season since 1961 with expansion from the 16 teams that had been the norm for decades.

[greymule]

"Besides it's been a 162 game season since 1961 with expansion from the 16 teams that had been the norm for decades."

In the beginning (1903), God created the American League and the National League. And God said, "Let there be eight teams in each." Those original 16 remained until the fall from grace, when the Boston Braves moved to Milwaukee in 1953. (Quick: Who was the only man who played for the Braves in Boston, Milwaukee, and Atlanta?)

I remember when you could go virtually anywhere and strike up a conversation about MLB. I also remember when "everybody" could name most of the starters on every team. Come to think of it, I could even today name all but a few subs on the two teams that played in the World Series of 50 years ago, and tell you the pitchers and the scores of all 7 games, including who hit home runs. But I couldn't name a single Pirate today, and I'd run out of Yankees fast.

It's hard to explain, but though I love baseball in the abstract—and maintained season tickets for the Phillies until the 1994 strike—I have lost interest entirely in MLB. I'd rather watch old highlight films than the live World Series game.

Season's too long. Too many teams. Too many lousy teams. Meaningless division races. Too many home runs. Talent too diluted. Too few teams have a distinctive identity. Too few fans have a deep attachment to their team.

So maybe it's not the pace of the game. Maybe if you don't care what happens, the games just seem too slow.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by greymule

It's hard to explain, but though I love baseball in the abstract—and maintained season tickets for the Phillies until the 1994 strike—I have lost interest entirely in MLB.

There's a lot of people that are in the same boat. MLB was good until the 1994 strike.