Left Early on a Caught Fly

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Runner on first, stealing. Looping liner/low fly ball to F3. R1 keeps going past 2nd as F3 makes a shoestring catch, stumbles - hitting the bag on the way - then fires to third to get the out, throwing it over the fence.

The fact that he was stealing on the "pitch" and simply kept going is where your flaw is in awarding home. At the time of the pitch the R1 only had legally obtained 1B. At the time of the pitch, he had not legally obtained 2B. When F3 caught the ball, the first play by him (since we all agree that the "appeal" was accidental) was his overthrow in attempt to retire R1 at 3B.

On the first play by an infielder, the runner is awarded two bases TOP.

As others have said, JM and TT are correct...or I at least agree with them.

As for my earlier posts, I would've gotten this play correct on the diamond. I had a hard time visualizing the accidental portion until I read further into the thread and as I stated in the other post, I can see the play developing as you describe it as well. As another posted, it really is a HTBT type situation...(for me anyway)

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

The fact that he was stealing on the "pitch" and simply kept going is where your flaw is in awarding home. At the time of the pitch the R1 only had legally obtained 1B. At the time of the pitch, he had not legally obtained 2B. When F3 caught the ball, the first play by him (since we all agree that the "appeal" was accidental) was his overthrow in attempt to retire R1 at 3B.

On the first play by an infielder, the runner is awarded two bases TOP.

As others have said, JM and TT are correct...or I at least agree with them.

As for my earlier posts, I would've gotten this play correct on the diamond. I had a hard time visualizing the accidental portion until I read further into the thread and as I stated in the other post, I can see the play developing as you describe it as well. As another posted, it really is a HTBT type situation...(for me anyway)

Just for clarification. On the above post, I may have quoted it, but it did not orginate from me.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Just for clarification. On the above post, I may have quoted it, but it did not orginate from me.

My mistake, I forgot to edit that part. I'll fix it.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

My mistake, I forgot to edit that part. I'll fix it.

You darn tootin better.

[johnnyg08]

I didn't think anybody would notice. I was wrong.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

At the time of the pitch, he had not legally obtained 2B.

On the first play by an infielder, the runner is awarded two bases TOP.

As others have said, JM and TT are correct...or I at least agree with them.

They are correct.

Award runner 3B.

You are not tipping off the defense or offense.

Runner should know he must retreat and touch 2B and 1B.

Defense should know to appeal if runner doesn't do so.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

:ding: A "catch" is not a "play."

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mbcrowder,

There is also this pretty unequivocal statement from the FED rule book (this principle is the same in OBR, NCAA, and FED) under the discussion of the starting point for base awards:
JM

I'm still not convinced that you can have an out and not have a play. I've always taken "the act of fielding" to refer to fielding a ground ball, not catching a fly ball.

I still maintain that to have an out there must have been a play.

At either rate, the UIC's ruling of award 2nd is still right out.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I'm still not convinced that you can have an out and not have a play. I've always taken "the act of fielding" to refer to fielding a ground ball, not catching a fly ball.

I still maintain that to have an out there must have been a play.

What will it take to convince you? How about you attend proschool and report back?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

What will it take to convince you? How about you attend proschool and report back?

How about a quote from a rule book that refers to catching? Or failing that a logical explanation of how we ended up with an out when no one made a play on the batter-runner.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

How about a quote from a rule book that refers to catching? Or failing that a logical explanation of how we ended up with an out when no one made a play on the batter-runner.

Well, let's see, you've been given the answer according to the Major League Umpire Manual, an official publication of MLB, and apparently that isn't enough.

If ignorance is bliss, you've gotta be one happy guy.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I'm still not convinced that you can have an out and not have a play. I've always taken "the act of fielding" to refer to fielding a ground ball, not catching a fly ball.

I still maintain that to have an out there must have been a play.

At either rate, the UIC's ruling of award 2nd is still right out.

Eastshire,

You are mistaken.

As I understand your argument, it is that "Well, gosh, that doesn't seem right to ME. That's not how I always thought of it."

It's not very persuasive. You clearly don't know what you are talking about, EVEN after you have been shown the unequivocal language from THE authoritative reference. Which is consistent with the treatment of the question in all of the respected interpretation manuals.

I mean, if I see an infielder make a diving catch on a low line drive, I might say something like, "That was a great play by that shortstop" - it's just not a "play" within the narrow context of the rule. Because that's not what they wanted the rule to be.

The rule is designed to encourage aggressive, even "risky", defensive play after the defense has initially gained control of a batted ball. That's why it's written that way.

JM

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Eastshire,

You are mistaken.

As I understand your argument, it is that "Well, gosh, that doesn't seem right to ME. That's not how I always thought of it."

It's not very persuasive. You clearly don't know what you are talking about, EVEN after you have been shown the unequivocal language from THE authoritative reference. Which is consistent with the treatment of the question in all of the respected interpretation manuals.

I mean, if I see an infielder make a diving catch on a low line drive, I might say something like, "That was a great play by that shortstop" - it's just not a "play" within the narrow context of the rule. Because that's not what they wanted the rule to be.

The rule is designed to encourage aggressive, even "risky", defensive play after the defense has initially gained control of a batted ball. That's why it's written that way.

JM

I'm not sure why why you're attacking me personally here. You haven't provided any reference let alone reference from the rule book beyond the one that deals with fielding (not catching) the ball.

You want to try again with an actual rules reference rather than personal attacks?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I'm not sure why why you're attacking me personally here. You haven't provided any reference let alone reference from the rule book beyond the one that deals with fielding (not catching) the ball.

You want to try again with an actual rules reference rather than personal attacks?

He posted the MLBUM definition of a play. That's where the answer is.

Do you understand what the MLBUM is? It's the OFFICIAL from the owners of OBR interpretations of the rules. It is gospel. Opinions to the contrary are invalid.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

He posted the MLBUM definition of a play. That's where the answer is.

Do you understand what the MLBUM is? It's the OFFICIAL from the owners of OBR interpretations of the rules. It is gospel. Opinions to the contrary are invalid.

Oddly enough, I'm not a MLB umpire so I don't have to take it as gospel. Show me a rule in a book that they are even basing the ruling from. I'm not saying they are wrong; I'm saying waiving that book around doesn't substitute for an actual rule on the matter.

I'm a Fed umpire and the MLBUM doesn't apply to my games at all. I'm not convinced that fielding and catching are equivalent.

Why don't you try to actual use the rules to change my mine instead of just yelling at me? I've got an open mind but stamping your foot just makes me think you're wrong.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I'm not sure why why you're attacking me personally here.

Dude!!! WTF are you talking about?!?!? If I had called you a moron, or your argument "retarded", THAT would have been attacking you personally.

I am deeply offended by your scurrilous, slanderous, and baseless accusation! (Sheesh, talk about getting personal.)

I just stated the fact that you were mistaken and paraphrased the "argument" you presented to support your erroneous position. Rather concisely and objectively, I thought.

You haven't provided any reference let alone reference from the rule book beyond the one that deals with fielding (not catching) the ball.

WTF are you talking about?!?!? I provided you TWO references - one from the MLBUM and one from the OBR rules. Are you blind? Anybody can see that they're there. And all catching is fielding, though not all fielding is catching, so I have no idea what point you're trying to make with that part.

You want to try again with an actual rules reference rather than personal attacks?

Read the MLBUM cite I posted earlier. What it says is that:

1. In order for there to be a "play" as defined for Rule 7.05(g)...

2. Some fielder must have possession of the ball

AND

3. Once he has possession of the ball, must perform some other act which the umpire judges to be a legitimate attempt (even if ultimately unsuccessful or aborted) to retire a runner.

Therefore, making a legal catch of an in-flight batted ball cannot be a "first play" in the context of 7.05(g) because it does not meet the defined requirements in the official interpretation.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Also...

...At either rate, the UIC's ruling of award 2nd is still right out. ...

What on earth were you trying to convey with this statement?

JM