Left Early on a Caught Fly

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Since the wild throw was the first play by an infielder

wrong.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

wrong.

Mike,

Would you care to bet on that?

As you described it, the wild throw is absolutely the "first play by an infielder" and, since all runners, including the BR, had not reached an advance base at the time the wild throw was released, this is a 2-base award, TOP.

Yes, I'm sure. Do I need to provide you with cites, or can you look it up yourself?

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

Would you care to bet on that?

As you described it, the wild throw is absolutely the "first play by an infielder" and, since all runners, including the BR, had not reached an advance base at the time the wild throw was released, this is a 2-base award, TOP.

Yes, I'm sure. Do I need to provide you with cites, or can you look it up yourself?

JM

Sure ... cites would be great. How are you saying all runners had not reached an advance base? BR is NOT a runner at the time the wild throw was released. BR is a retired runner - whose position can NOT be relevant any longer. And R1 had most assuredly advanced.

And how can the catch not be a play? If BR interfered with such a fielder, BR would be guilty of interfering with A PLAY...

[UmpJM]

Mike,

From the MLBUM:

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases (Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or
actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play.

The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule.

7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance—

...

(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or
under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead.
When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was
pitched; ...

Again, as the rule clearly states, a throw by an infielder which is his first play results in a TOP award, not a TOT award.

JM

[UmpTTS43]

Glossed over that point in the OP. JM is correct.

Here is another example.

R1 less than 2 out. R1 off on the pitch on an apparent hit and run. B1 hits a slow blooper that F6 dives and catches. F6 fires to first to double up R1 but the ball goes out of play. At the time of the throw R1 was past second base. Ruling: R1 is awarded 3rd base due to first play by an infielder went out of play. Of course R1 must retouch prior to obtaining third.

[Fittske]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

From the MLBUM:



The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule.



Again, as the rule clearly states, a throw by an infielder which is his first play results in a TOP award, not a TOT award.

JM

Ok correct me if I'm wrong....

But the key to 7.05(g)) is...... A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. In the origional sitch...The catch of the low line drive retires the batter runner... which is the first play by an infielder. The subsequent throw into DBT is the 2nd play, so the award is TOT not TOP.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Fittske

Ok correct me if I'm wrong....

But the key to 7.05(g)) is...... A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. In the origional sitch...The catch of the low line drive retires the batter runner... which is the first play by an infielder. The subsequent throw into DBT is the 2nd play, so the award is TOT not TOP.

Fittske,

I'd be happy to correct you, becuase you are wrong.

At the risk of repeating myself, the MLBUM passage I cited before says the fileder must have possession of the ball in order to make a "play" as the word is used in 7.05(g).

The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule, even if the act of gaining possession results in an out.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

I see what you are saying, but it seems that one could also read this saying that at the moment the BR was retired, the fielder has possession (if he didn't, it's not a catch). I'm on the fence here.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by Fittske

Ok correct me if I'm wrong....

But the key to 7.05(g)) is...... A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. In the origional sitch...The catch of the low line drive retires the batter runner... which is the first play by an infielder. The subsequent throw into DBT is the 2nd play, so the award is TOT not TOP.

The act of fielding a batted ball, whether caught or not, is not to be considered a "play" for the purposes of base awards.

[greymule]

R1 less than 2 out. R1 off on the pitch on an apparent hit and run. B1 hits a slow blooper that F6 dives and catches. F6 fires to first to double up R1 but the ball goes out of play. At the time of the throw R1 was past second base. Ruling: R1 is awarded 3rd base due to first play by an infielder went out of play. Of course R1 must retouch prior to obtaining third.

UmpTTS43, where did you get that example?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

R1 less than 2 out. R1 off on the pitch on an apparent hit and run. B1 hits a slow blooper that F6 dives and catches. F6 fires to first to double up R1 but the ball goes out of play. At the time of the throw R1 was past second base. Ruling: R1 is awarded 3rd base due to first play by an infielder went out of play. Of course R1 must retouch prior to obtaining third.

UmpTTS43, where did you get that example?

I made it up to demonstrate the correct application of the rule in question.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

From the MLBUM:



The point is, to make a "play" - as the word is used in 7.05(g) - the fielder must already HAVE possession of the ball. Gaining possession of the ball is NEVER a "play" for the purpose of the rule.



Again, as the rule clearly states, a throw by an infielder which is his first play results in a TOP award, not a TOT award.

JM

Honestly, I've never heard anyone ever try to interpret this way. Nevermind that the only runner on the field has, in fact, advanceds a base... this "catching is not a play" is new. Looking forward to the guys who've been here a while to chime in. I admit the wording seems to lead that way ... but you'd think that at least ONCE in all this time, I'd have heard of this interpretation of that rule if that's what we're supposed to call, and I haven't.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Looking forward to the guys who've been here a while to chime in.

:ding: A "catch" is not a "play."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Honestly, I've never heard anyone ever try to interpret this way. Nevermind that the only runner on the field has, in fact, advanceds a base... this "catching is not a play" is new. Looking forward to the guys who've been here a while to chime in. I admit the wording seems to lead that way ... but you'd think that at least ONCE in all this time, I'd have heard of this interpretation of that rule if that's what we're supposed to call, and I haven't.

This is, indeed, the interpretation. A catch is not considered a play or attempted play.

I'm in a meeting so have little time or access to materials, but I'll add to this later if I get a moment. It may be tomorrow.

[UmpJM]

mbcrowder,

There is also this pretty unequivocal statement from the FED rule book (this principle is the same in OBR, NCAA, and FED) under the discussion of the starting point for base awards:

8-4-5 ...For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. ....

JM