Left early on a caught fly

[MD Longhorn]

Runner on 3rd, creeping up the line on the pitch, which is lined to F5 who catches, lands on the bag, rolls, sees R1 scrambling to get back and dives to tag the bag or the player, as R1 beats F5 back to the bag.

What do you have?

[shipwreck]

Nothing. F5 falling on the base does not constitute making an appeal. It is also easy to see even if the DC comes out and says she was making a live ball appeal, then why was she trying to get to the base or runner to tag them? Dave

[drwells1]

I would have said out on first contact with the bag but shpiwreckeds post has me leaning the other way. but get ready for the dc to blow a gasket, whether you explained it correctly or not

[Skahtboi]

I guess the main question to the OP is "can there be such a thing as an accidental appeal?!"

While we all know that most players are unaware that they are actually making an appeal when they make a live ball appeal on a runner leaving a base early, there is still a deliberate action that accompanies the appeal in most cases, such as a throw to the base or a tag of the base/runner by the fielder.

This makes me lean toward Shipwreck's summation of the problem, however, I am open to the concept of "accidental appeal" if someone can support it by rule.

So, on the OP as written, I would probably have to go with nothing but the runner being safe as she apparently beat the appeal back to the bag.

[MD Longhorn]

OK. I admit I significantly dumbed down the situation to get at the heart of the matter.

Here's the actual situation that happened on Sunday.

Runner on first, stealing. Looping liner/low fly ball to F3. R1 keeps going past 2nd as F3 makes a shoestring catch, stumbles - hitting the bag on the way - then fires to third to get the out, throwing it over the fence.

I award home, DC requests time and comes out to argue that there was an appeal at 1st. I get with BU, he confirms we have the same thing - no appeal, contact with the bag was accidental. He continues to have a fit and eventually ejects himself.

UIC, who was there, tells me we blew the call three times - once on the touch of first (His words: "it's not an appeal, it's a force"), 2nd - the award should have been 2nd base, since "the runner legally had to return... and his two bases were 1st and 2nd; and 3rd for not calling the out on the appeal during the argument (DC never says, "runner left early" or any words I could stretch into a dead ball appeal - just "my fielder touched the bag", etc.)

I promised UIC I would post this here, and that I would post in this way - first as "what I was calling an accidental appeal", then with the full sitch. He promised he'd check here to see the "verdict". This was my first time working for this UIC.

And with no worry of offense, honestly ... my last. (Sorry sir ... I can't work in an area where the UIC's rules knowledge is this far off.)

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

UIC, who was there, tells me we blew the call three times - once on the touch of first (His words: "it's not an appeal, it's a force"), 2nd - the award should have been 2nd base, since "the runner legally had to return... and his two bases were 1st and 2nd; and 3rd for not calling the out on the appeal during the argument (DC never says, "runner left early" or any words I could stretch into a dead ball appeal - just "my fielder touched the bag", etc.)

Blew the call 3 times?!??! Um, no.
Case 1: By definition, a force can only occur due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. Once the ball is caught, she is no longer a batter runner. Just because a defender may step on a bag, does not mean it's a force.

Case 2: Where was the runner at the time of the throw? If she was between 2nd and 3rd, the award is, indeed, home. However, that does not absolve her of her baserunning responsibilities. If she doesn't tag up at 1B, she's in jeapordy of being called out on proper appeal (which, in ASA, requires a player to say or do something .... not a coach.)

Case 3: See the portion in parenthesis above.


Would ya come work for me, Mike?? :-)

[youngump]

I'm with RadioBlue on the answer here, but I don't think the first situation is quite as clear cut. (Though I agree with the result in the specifics given.)

Suppose we have R1 leaving clearly early. The ball is caught with the runner heading back. The runner is about to the bag and the fielder takes the ball appears to accidentally get the bag and then clearly says "she left early" just after the runner slides in. In this case, I'd take the touch as part of an appeal timely made because her addressing me shows she new what she was doing and I don't think you have to make it clear while appealing.

Now in the case given, I distinguish the logic because it's still not clear an appeal is being executed. Since the runner is off the bag, trying to tag the runner may be just that, an attempt to tag a runner who is in jeopardy of being retired.

If instead of trying to dive back the fielder indicated that she was appealing before the runner got back, I'd be inclined to honor that appeal unless something happened to make them seem like separate events.
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HooliganGirl live

[CecilOne]

Clearly, that UIC is not among those on this forum, although we are not an official ruling source.

Both OP situations are accidental, reinforced by both fielders making a further attempt on the same runner.

The timing suggest by Youngump, if close enough to a deliberate move to the base seems appropriate if ITUJ there was no time to say it before.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

UIC, who was there, tells me we blew the call three times - once on the touch of first (His words: "it's not an appeal, it's a force")

Uh, no. It is an appeal. A live ball appeal. The most common of all live ball appeals. This statement shows me that the UIC in question has little understanding of the rule, maybe about the level of an average player.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

2nd - the award should have been 2nd base, since "the runner legally had to return... and his two bases were 1st and 2nd;

If, as initially stated by the UIC, this was a force out, how could this even enter in to play? A force out is a force out. However, assuming the absence of a live ball appeal, again, no. It is the responsibility of both the D to know what they must do in this case (make the appeal), and the runner to know what they must do (return to first as a result of leaving the base early). It seems neither knew what to do, so your award is in keeping with the rule. Now, the defense has the opportunity to make a dead ball appeal. If they failed to do so, then the play stands.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

3rd for not calling the out on the appeal during the argument (DC never says, "runner left early" or any words I could stretch into a dead ball appeal - just "my fielder touched the bag", etc.)

"My runner touched the bag" may be an acceptable appeal. It demonstrates, possibly, that the coach had an idea what needed to be done and for what reason. However, to make it legit, it would be better if they had stated a little more information, such as "The runner left early and my defender touched the bag." Better yet would be, "I would like to appeal the runner leaving first base early on that caught fly ball." With all of that said, however, I still feel like honoring the appeal on just what you report the coach saying would be giving legitimacy to the concept of an "accidental appeal."

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

With all of that said, however, I still feel like honoring the appeal on just what you report the coach saying would be giving legitimacy to the concept of an "accidental appeal."

And, of course, there's that nagging detail that, depending on the rule set, a coach can't appeal this play. It might not matter what he said or how he said it!

Was this game played under a rule set that specifies the appeal must be executed by a player?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Was this game played under a rule set that specifies the appeal must be executed by a player?

Yes ... but if the coach DID say something along those lines, it gives me the opportunity to say, "Coach, you can't appeal that play, it has to come from a player."

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yes ... but if the coach DID say something along those lines, it gives me the opportunity to say, "Coach, you can't appeal that play, it has to come from a player."

It also gives you the opportunity to tell this UIC that, besides not understanding what a force out is and not knowing the correct base award for a ball thrown out of play, he doesn't understand the proper appeal process, either.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

It also gives you the opportunity to tell this UIC that, besides not understanding what a force out is and not knowing the correct base award for a ball thrown out of play, he doesn't understand the proper appeal process, either.

That conversation has already been had. He didn't believe me on that either, until this got discussed in the umpire room. He does now.

There's an interesting (using the term loosely) discussion on this same play on the baseball board. There seems to be disagreement (including by me) regarding whether a catch is "a play" with regard to awarding of bases. A large contingent says it is not, and that the "first play by an infielder" was the overthrow, so the award should have been TOP, not TOT. Thoughts?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That conversation has already been had. He didn't believe me on that either, until this got discussed in the umpire room. He does now.

There's an interesting (using the term loosely) discussion on this same play on the baseball board. There seems to be disagreement (including by me) regarding whether a catch is "a play" with regard to awarding of bases. A large contingent says it is not, and that the "first play by an infielder" was the overthrow, so the award should have been TOP, not TOT. Thoughts?

There's too much vitriol on the baseball board. I don't call baseball but my understanding of the rule growing up was that the catch was not an initial play and so intuitively just read it that way (the opposite of your reading). And finally, their rule book doesn't seem clear at all.
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The Legend Condominium Pattaya

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That conversation has already been had. He didn't believe me on that either, until this got discussed in the umpire room. He does now.

There's an interesting (using the term loosely) discussion on this same play on the baseball board. There seems to be disagreement (including by me) regarding whether a catch is "a play" with regard to awarding of bases. A large contingent says it is not, and that the "first play by an infielder" was the overthrow, so the award should have been TOP, not TOT. Thoughts?

This, of course, is an immaterial side conversation, since it has no bearing on any softball ruling, since we don't care if first or subsequent play, or if by an infielder or an outfielder, when awarding bases.

Strictly for the academic discussion, does baseball not have an equivalent definition of a "play", being an attempt by the defense to put out an offensive player?? If so, how can the catch (which DID put out the batter-runner) NOT be a play?