Abandonment???

[johnnyg08]

I think the attempt to advance mainly applies to an overthrow on a play attempt at 1B. Runner thinks he can make it to 2B...then thinks twice and retreats to 1B...he is liable to be tagged out. J/R says that 1 step (or more) toward 2B qualifies at a Feint or attempt to advance.

If he's heading back to the dugout in OBR, he's out. A little more hairy for FED...esp with the courtesy runner issue. Could be the crappy end of the stick...

[GA Umpire]

In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.

Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call.

No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still.

[David M]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.

Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call.

No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still.

At what point do call him out for abandonment?

[johnnyg08]

When in my judgement, he gives up his base. The rule is posted above.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by David M

At what point do call him out for abandonment?

That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

[johnnyg08]

That's just it...this is pretty much umpire judgement other than at home plate where in OBR they give the hitter the "circle" and/or must make an immediate attempt to run to 1B when he's legally able to run to 1B. This is the type of call where we make the big bucks and the 1B coach is basically worthless and then they blame the umpire(s) for calling him out for abandonment.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

So you're saying it depends on the situation. What kind of crap is that?? Oh yeah, it's called game management *For all of you that didn't catch that, I was being sarcastic in the first two sentences*

-Josh

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, game management...where we make the big bucks!

[UmpTTS43]

A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out. Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

7.08j Any runner is out when ..... He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged. If, after overrunning or oversliding first base he starts toward the dugout, or toward his position, and fails to return to first base at once, he is out, on appeal, when he or the base is tagged;

7.08a2 PLAY. Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by LMan

Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.

I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out.

What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbyron

What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

If the BR is heading towards the dugout, he is not in the act of "immediately" returning to first base. If tagged, as in the original OP, he is out on appeal. In order to get the out for abandonment, you have to judge that he has progressed a "reasonable distance" away from the bag. It is possible that you don't think that the BR has progressed a "reasonable distance" in order to get the out for abandonment, but you can still get the appealable out for not "immediately" returning to first base. This appealable infraction is for first base only, where abandonment can happen at any base. From the original OP, we can have two different out calls for two different rules violations.

As far as a player removing his equipment off of the base ...

.... let's say that the BR beats out a banger at first and stops 15 ft. behind the base. Instead of returning to first and then ridding himself of his gear, the BR stays at his stopped spot and "dis-equipments." (takes off his elbow and ankle protection) While this is happening, the defense now appeals by either tagging the BR or first base. How can you not uphold the appeal? The defense recognized that the BR did not fullfill his base running responsibilities. By ignoring this appropriate appeal, you are disregarding a rule, which we are there to enforce, and will create an even larger "sh*tstorm."

I have never had to rule on this, but given the correct circumstances, I would uphold the appeal and deal with whatever objection that would result due to my ruling. Correctly upholding this appropriate appeal is no different than upholding any other appealable offence, such as a missed base or leaving too soon on a caught fly ball and should not be considered as being an OOO.

I agree with the post that said that upholding the appeal based on the BR taking his gear off while returning to first would be inappropriate. That would be different from the example I described above.