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David M Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:21am

Abandonment???
 
Game last night I was BU. R2 so I am in C. BR hits grounder to short. Throw from short is low and not dug out by the first baseman. I call the runner safe. The runner apparently thought he was out and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag). I called him out. I got a mild argument for the O coach but nothing bad.

After the game I looked up abandonment in JR (which I don't have with me now) which says something to the effect that this would be abandonment if the BR has no intent of returning to the base. He had no intent until the first baseman ran over to tag him.

Would this be abandonment? If not how much space and time would you give a BR to return to first?

Thanks

mbyron Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:26am

Was the rest of the team asleep, including the base coach? Maybe punch up your safe call to wake them? ;)

The tag is not valid, as the runner made no attempt to advance. So if F3 tags him and then he returns to the base, I've got him safe there.

I seem to recollect for FED they haven't abandoned until they enter the dugout. Depending on the level, I might enforce the same way for OBR. But, as they say, you can't fix stupid.

bob jenkins Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 617628)
and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag).

That's far enough for abandonment for me.

jdmara Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 617628)
Game last night I was BU. R2 so I am in C. BR hits grounder to short. Throw from short is low and not dug out by the first baseman. I call the runner safe. The runner apparently thought he was out and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag). I called him out. I got a mild argument for the O coach but nothing bad.

After the game I looked up abandonment in JR (which I don't have with me now) which says something to the effect that this would be abandonment if the BR has no intent of returning to the base. He had no intent until the first baseman ran over to tag him.

Would this be abandonment? If not how much space and time would you give a BR to return to first?

Thanks

As I envision the situation, I agree that the runner is liable to being tagged out. As you know, the runner after overrunning first "may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" (NFHS 8-2-7). I believe the argument could very well be made that the runner, by going over to the first base coach, did not immediately return to 1b and is now liable to being tagged out.

-Josh

mbyron Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 617640)
As I envision the situation, I agree that the runner is liable to being tagged out. As you know, the runner after overrunning first "may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" (NFHS 8-2-7). I believe the argument could very well be made that the runner, by going over to the first base coach, did not immediately return to 1b and is now liable to being tagged out.

-Josh

Josh, you're not reading the the condition on the permission above. This runner made no move to 2B, and so he is still allowed to return to 1B (until you call him out for abandonment).

jicecone Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:25am

I agree, the safe sign seems weak here however, in OBR if you felt that the runner abandoned the bag, he is out. Period, end of discussion, that is the rule and bottom line we HTBT otherwise.

I certainly hope we don't get into a discussion of how far EXACTLY this play happened from the bag or dugout. "Officials judgement" call here.

David M Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:26am

The offensive team was asleep as there was no 1st base coach. The game was played under OBR.

jdmara Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 617640)
As I envision the situation, I agree that the runner is liable to being tagged out. As you know, the runner after overrunning first "may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" (NFHS 8-2-7). I believe the argument could very well be made that the runner, by going over to the first base coach, did not immediately return to 1b and is now liable to being tagged out.

-Josh

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 617641)
Josh, you're not reading the the condition on the permission above. This runner made no move to 2B, and so he is still allowed to return to 1B (until you call him out for abandonment).

I agree that it specifies "provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" as a qualifier to the root of the sentence ("may immediately return without liability of being put out"). But not immediately returning to first, in the judgment of the umpire, is subjective, of course. Perhaps I'm picking apart a sentence that doesn't need to be picked apart ;)

I'm interpreting (although perhaps incorrectly) the runner is liable of being put out if he:
  • Faints to Second
  • Attempts to advance
  • Does not return "immediately"

Am I off base with what 8-2-7 is saying? I think this rule nips in the butt the runner hanging out behind second for an unnecessary amount of time after overrunning first.

-Josh

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:58am

I think the attempt to advance mainly applies to an overthrow on a play attempt at 1B. Runner thinks he can make it to 2B...then thinks twice and retreats to 1B...he is liable to be tagged out. J/R says that 1 step (or more) toward 2B qualifies at a Feint or attempt to advance.

If he's heading back to the dugout in OBR, he's out. A little more hairy for FED...esp with the courtesy runner issue. Could be the crappy end of the stick...

GA Umpire Wed Jul 29, 2009 09:41am

In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.

Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call.

No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still.

David M Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GA Umpire (Post 617657)
In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.

Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call.

No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still.

At what point do call him out for abandonment?

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:37am

When in my judgement, he gives up his base. The rule is posted above.

GA Umpire Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 617665)
At what point do call him out for abandonment?

That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:49am

That's just it...this is pretty much umpire judgement other than at home plate where in OBR they give the hitter the "circle" and/or must make an immediate attempt to run to 1B when he's legally able to run to 1B. This is the type of call where we make the big bucks and the 1B coach is basically worthless and then they blame the umpire(s) for calling him out for abandonment.

jdmara Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GA Umpire (Post 617675)
That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

So you're saying it depends on the situation. What kind of crap is that?? Oh yeah, it's called game management :D *For all of you that didn't catch that, I was being sarcastic in the first two sentences*

-Josh


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