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Old Mon May 31, 2004, 01:00pm
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Bases loaded, bottom 7, two out, Legion A division. Batter hits single, run scores, batter-runner touches first, but R1 peels off halfway to second and heads for 3b dugout. I waited for defense to toss ball to 2nd for force, but they just jogged in and tossed me ball. I went and grabbed PU and we made a relatively quick exit before visiting team manager woke up from his nap. Since defense conceeded game, by tossing the ball to me, was it proper to not call the abandonment. I believe it was proper, as the expected call was for game to be over, home team wins, but would like some thoughts on this subject. It was a nice quiet walk to parking lot, but I have a feeling if we called the abandonment on our own without appeal, there would probably have been an ejection or two involved.
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Old Mon May 31, 2004, 01:29pm
DG DG is offline
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It ain't a single until R1 touches 2B, because if he is forced it's a fielder's choice. You could call R1 out for abandoning the bases. However, I would put this one in the "call a rule nobody knows" category (51 Ways to Ruin a Baseball Game), ie don't do it.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 12:48pm
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A couple of questions and points - 1) What rules are you playing under?

Unless appealled properly, I don't believe (could be wrong - but I'm about 70% sure of this) abandonment is a forceplay - it's a timing play. Did he "abandon" (or did you call it as such) before or after the run scored? For the out to eliminate the run scored, it would have to be a force (or an appeal of the force), not a timing play, or the timing of the out would have to be before the run scored (and you'd have to have an AWFULLY quick trigger on calling him out for abandonment for this to be the case).

I believe that in most rulebooks, the defense forfeits it's right to appeal when it leaves the field (and most even define when "leaving the field" takes place. I don't think you broke any rules here.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBBlue
Bases loaded, bottom 7, two out, Legion A division. Batter hits single, run scores, batter-runner touches first, but R1 peels off halfway to second and heads for 3b dugout. I waited for defense to toss ball to 2nd for force, but they just jogged in and tossed me ball. I went and grabbed PU and we made a relatively quick exit before visiting team manager woke up from his nap. Since defense conceeded game, by tossing the ball to me, was it proper to not call the abandonment. I believe it was proper, as the expected call was for game to be over, home team wins, but would like some thoughts on this subject. It was a nice quiet walk to parking lot, but I have a feeling if we called the abandonment on our own without appeal, there would probably have been an ejection or two involved.
If thed defense says nothing, just walk away.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 10:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder
A couple of questions and points - 1) What rules are you playing under?

Unless appealled properly, I don't believe (could be wrong - but I'm about 70% sure of this) abandonment is a forceplay - it's a timing play. Did he "abandon" (or did you call it as such) before or after the run scored? For the out to eliminate the run scored, it would have to be a force (or an appeal of the force), not a timing play, or the timing of the out would have to be before the run scored (and you'd have to have an AWFULLY quick trigger on calling him out for abandonment for this to be the case).

I believe that in most rulebooks, the defense forfeits it's right to appeal when it leaves the field (and most even define when "leaving the field" takes place. I don't think you broke any rules here.
Abandonement is not an appeal play, you call it when you see it. And I believe that if it involves a force play for 3rd out, then no runs score. But again, it would be calling something nobody else knows and best left alone.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 11:04pm
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It's American League OBR. Since bases were loaded, all runners needed to touch the next base on the force. No run would have scored if abandonment had been called. Timing play was not an issue. Thanks for the input, I felt it best to just leave when defense gave me the ball.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 11:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBBlue
It's American League OBR. Since bases were loaded, all runners needed to touch the next base on the force. No run would have scored if abandonment had been called. Timing play was not an issue. Thanks for the input, I felt it best to just leave when defense gave me the ball.
I agree, but it's not a game winning hit, until all the runners touche the next base. If this were a MLB game you would likely call abandonement because that's the rule, but then again, you would not have to becaue the runners would advance to the next base so it would not be an issue.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 11:33pm
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I agree, but it's not a game winning hit, until all the runners touche the next base. If this were a MLB game you would likely call abandonement because that's the rule, but then again, you would not have to becaue the runners would advance to the next base so it would not be an issue.
You can say that an MLB player would do what they need to but then I give you Fernando Tatis, Ruben Rivera amongst others. How many times have players tossed a ball into the stands and not even know the outs? So I suspect an MLB player not getting to the next base would not be out of the question.
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Old Tue Jun 01, 2004, 11:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Quote:
I agree, but it's not a game winning hit, until all the runners touche the next base. If this were a MLB game you would likely call abandonement because that's the rule, but then again, you would not have to becaue the runners would advance to the next base so it would not be an issue.
You can say that an MLB player would do what they need to but then I give you Fernando Tatis, Ruben Rivera amongst others. How many times have players tossed a ball into the stands and not even know the outs? So I suspect an MLB player not getting to the next base would not be out of the question.
Ok, then a ML ump should call a runner out for abandonement, per rule. But an American Legion ump should go home in this sitch.
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Old Wed Jun 02, 2004, 07:49am
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Merkle was out on appeal - not for abandonment.
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Old Wed Jun 02, 2004, 09:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Ives
Merkle was out on appeal - not for abandonment.
Who is Merkle?
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Old Wed Jun 02, 2004, 10:35pm
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Fred Merkle was on the NY Giants. They played the Cubs in late September of 1908. On a game winning hit (there were runners on 1st & 3rd or the bases were loaded) with 2 outs he failed to touch 2nd base. Johnny Evers of the Cubs appealed at 2nd nullifying the run. By this time the field was overrun with fans and the game ended in a tie! The Cubs and Giants ended up tied at the end of the season forcing a playoff game for the pennant.
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Old Wed Jun 02, 2004, 11:30pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tornado
Fred Merkle was on the NY Giants. They played the Cubs in late September of 1908. On a game winning hit (there were runners on 1st & 3rd or the bases were loaded) with 2 outs he failed to touch 2nd base. Johnny Evers of the Cubs appealed at 2nd nullifying the run. By this time the field was overrun with fans and the game ended in a tie! The Cubs and Giants ended up tied at the end of the season forcing a playoff game for the pennant.
Damn, I thought I was on old f*rt. I don't know anybody old enough to be watching a game in 1908. I don't have a 1908 rule book (who does?), but I suspect rules have changed some since then. Today, an abandonment call could be made, not an appeal call. And I am not aware of how a game can end in tie today. Suspended game with a tie score maybe, and only completed if meaningful in final standings. But why a playoff game? If only I had a 1908 rulebook?
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Old Fri Jun 04, 2004, 10:19am
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OBR.
Abandonment is NOT a force out, (J/R). Umpires don't make force plays, fielders do.

If you called abandonment in that play the run would still score unless it was appealed by the defense. Score the run and get to the Hogs Breath Saloon ASAP.
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Old Fri Jun 04, 2004, 02:26pm
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Gee beat me to it. In OBR, abandonment is a timing play. If the run scored before you called it (and since you didn't call it, the run scored before), then it doesn't matter if you called it. The run scored. The defense can't appeal once they leave the field either. You did nothing secretive or underhanded by not making the call - it didn't matter if you did.
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