Only in Little League

[Dave Reed]

Bishopcolle,
The part of J/R I referenced applies solely to the actions of a batter, and not to a batter runner. The running lane is only relevant when there is a B/R. There is no batter-runner in the OP, only a confused batter.

My apologies (and sympathy) to the various posters who have already pointed this out in this thread.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Bishopcolle,
The part of J/R I referenced applies solely to the actions of a batter, and not to a batter runner. The running lane is only relevant when there is a B/R. There is no batter-runner in the OP, only a confused batter.

My apologies (and sympathy) to the various posters who have already pointed this out in this thread.

My apologies as well...."pitcher throws ball 3. batter thinks it is ball 4 and starts to run to first base," taken from the OP, seems to indicate that the batter BELIEVES he is a BR--he definitely isn't, but he acts like one, and he takes off (starts to run) for first base--per the OP. Therefore, the running lane is relevant to the OP, and hence, my comment that you would have interference if he is out of his running lane.....My apologies and sympathy to other posters.....

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

My apologies as well...."pitcher throws ball 3. batter thinks it is ball 4 and starts to run to first base," taken from the OP, seems to indicate that the batter BELIEVES he is a BR--he definitely isn't, but he acts like one, and he takes off (starts to run) for first base--per the OP. Therefore, the running lane is relevant to the OP, and hence, my comment that you would have interference if he is out of his running lane.....My apologies and sympathy to other posters.....

The batter's mistaken belief does not make him a runner. The batter's misinformed actions do not make him a runner.

Only the events of the game can make him a runner, and none of the events that make a batter a runner occurred in the OP. Ergo, he's just a batter, and guilty of interference.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The batter's mistaken belief does not make him a runner. The batter's misinformed actions do not make him a runner.

Only the events of the game can make him a runner, and none of the events that make a batter a runner occurred in the OP. Ergo, he's just a batter, and guilty of interference.

MBryon: I agree with you....I stated that he "definitely" is not a runner....My point being is that he RAN and was way out in front of F2 in the lane....He did not interfere with F2, at the plate, because he was running....improperly, yes. Therefore, F2's errant throw to his back was poor defense (unless the batter was in the field of play which isn't made clear by the OP.) That's why I wouldn't give an INT call here.....

[NFump]

one out, man on first base. count is 2-2 on the batter. pitcher throws ball 3. batter thinks it is ball 4 and starts to run to first base. the runner on 1st thinks it must be ball 4 also and starts to walk to 2nd. the catcher, knows it is ball 3 and now attempts to pick the runner off at 1st base off since he is moving so slowly. the thrown ball by the catcher now hits the batter-runner and the runner on first now makes it to second. what is the ruling?


Who is this batter? Mercury? What did he do......leave for first as the pitcher started to pitch? Do you actually think the catcher waited that long to throw down to first? Please show me where it states he's way out in front of F2 or has even reached the running lane much less whether or not he's in it (like it matters in this case), but let's roll with it.

The BATTER is halfway (35 to 45 feet) to first when catcher "pegs" him in the back, has the BATTER stepped out of the box? Well yes he has. Did he interfere with the catcher's throw to retire a runner? Yep, knocked it down with his back as he was running (in the running lane no less) to first. Is he guilty of Batter's Interference? Absoforkinlutely!

Here's how I see it: The BATTER is most likely just clearing the lefty batter's box and getting directly in front of F2 AS HE IS THROWING to first. That's not an "errant throw", "poor defense", "a crappy throw"or "poor aim". IT'S INTERFERENCE. Nor is it any of those in your example, IT'S INTERFERENCE.

6.8 BATTER INTERFERES WITH CATCHER

Under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(c), if the batter interferes with the catcher's THROW TO RETIRE A RUNNER by STEPPING OUT OF THE BATTER'S BOX, the plate umpire SHALL call "interference". The batter is OUT and the ball is dead(provided the catcher's initial throw does not retire the runner; see following paragraph). And so on and so forth. (notice is says "shall")

MLBUM 6.10 BATTER INTERFERES WITH CATCHER'S THROW BACK TO PITCHER (notice it says throw).

Skip on down to the second paragraph, last two lines where it says:

If the batter interferes with the catcher's THROW TO RETIRE A RUNNER by stepping out of the batter's box, interference SHALL be called on the batter under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(c). (See Section 6.8)
To reiterate....Did the batter step out of the box? Yes
Did the catcher throw in an attempt to retire a runner? Yes
Did batter interfere with said throw? Yes
Is it an out? You bet your bippy.

[NFump]

Oh, one more that illustrates it well.

From J/R:

"R1. A left-handed batter standing deep in the box gets a running start to attempt a drag bunt. He misses the ball and ends up about ten feet up the first base line. The catcher attempts to pick the runner off first and hits the batter in the back of the head with the throw: INTERFERENCE. The batter is out and R1 returns.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by NFump

one out, man on first base. count is 2-2 on the batter. pitcher throws ball 3. batter thinks it is ball 4 and starts to run to first base. the runner on 1st thinks it must be ball 4 also and starts to walk to 2nd. the catcher, knows it is ball 3 and now attempts to pick the runner off at 1st base off since he is moving so slowly. the thrown ball by the catcher now hits the batter-runner and the runner on first now makes it to second. what is the ruling?


Who is this batter? Mercury? What did he do......leave for first as the pitcher started to pitch? Do you actually think the catcher waited that long to throw down to first? Please show me where it states he's way out in front of F2 or has even reached the running lane much less whether or not he's in it (like it matters in this case), but let's roll with it.

The BATTER is halfway (35 to 45 feet) to first when catcher "pegs" him in the back, has the BATTER stepped out of the box? Well yes he has. Did he interfere with the catcher's throw to retire a runner? Yep, knocked it down with his back as he was running (in the running lane no less) to first. Is he guilty of Batter's Interference? Absoforkinlutely!

Here's how I see it: The BATTER is most likely just clearing the lefty batter's box and getting directly in front of F2 AS HE IS THROWING to first. That's not an "errant throw", "poor defense", "a crappy throw"or "poor aim". IT'S INTERFERENCE. Nor is it any of those in your example, IT'S INTERFERENCE.

6.8 BATTER INTERFERES WITH CATCHER

Under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(c), if the batter interferes with the catcher's THROW TO RETIRE A RUNNER by STEPPING OUT OF THE BATTER'S BOX, the plate umpire SHALL call "interference". The batter is OUT and the ball is dead(provided the catcher's initial throw does not retire the runner; see following paragraph). And so on and so forth. (notice is says "shall")

MLBUM 6.10 BATTER INTERFERES WITH CATCHER'S THROW BACK TO PITCHER (notice it says throw).

Skip on down to the second paragraph, last two lines where it says:

If the batter interferes with the catcher's THROW TO RETIRE A RUNNER by stepping out of the batter's box, interference SHALL be called on the batter under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(c). (See Section 6.8)
To reiterate....Did the batter step out of the box? Yes
Did the catcher throw in an attempt to retire a runner? Yes
Did batter interfere with said throw? Yes
Is it an out? You bet your bippy.

Wow.....I am sorry you see it that way....all of the above IMHO is being VERY poorly applied to the OP....Just my opinion, so we can just agree to disagree....but, again, WOW!!!!

[NFump]

Wow? I'm not sorry you see it your way, I'm simply amazed. If being "poorly applied" means exactly as the rule states, then yes it is. And the famous "agree to disagree" when you've run out of anything to counter the argument with. No matter how you change this sitch from the OP sans no play being made, it's interference.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by umpjong

(c) He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base.

As you see, this rule only protects the catcher at home base. To apply this rule the act must occur at the plate, not down the line. I've probably got nothing unless the batter did something else besides just run to first. Dont forget the fact that the catcher threw the ball to first? also. Dont reward him for throwing to the wrong base. (R1 was walking towards 2nd) Typical LL play here - time for coaches to do their jobs here......Play on!!

Operative word here is OR....the play DOES NOT only have to occur at home plate. Same verbage in both rule sets.
LLBB Official Rules 6.06(c) and LLBB Casebook Pg. 22-23.
OBR MLB 6.06(c)

[KJUmp]

Bishop...Quote LLBB rules and interps. It was a Little League game...OBR rules/interps have no validity on the play from the OP.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by NFump

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][B]

I agree with Steve

Let's simply change the dinamics in the OP. No one on first. B1 K's but ball is is dropped by F2 or gets away from F2.

B1 starts to run to first base and F2's throw hits B1 in the back. B1 was IN THE running lane.

What's your call?

I gather from your response above you would have interference and IMO you would be wrong.

You cannot let "F2 off the hook" on bad throws.

As Steve said a good F2 KNOWS how to throw. You will hear F2 or F3 say INSIDE / OUTSIDE so that there is a CLEAR throwing lane for F2.

IMO, most are "hung-up" on the fact that the batter in this OP is NOT a runner so the simply fact that he ran to first is cause for interference.

You need to LOOK at the ENTIRE play. Also, do NOT reward the defense because F2 made an errant throw.

Pete Booth

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

Sent to me by a coach. I am cutting and pasting here.

one out, man on first base. count is 2-2 on the batter. pitcher throws ball 3. batter thinks it is ball 4 and starts to run to first base. the runner on 1st thinks it must be ball 4 also and starts to walk to 2nd. the catcher, knows it is ball 3 and now attempts to pick the runner off at 1st base off since he is moving so slowly. the thrown ball by the catcher now hits the batter-runner and the runner on first now makes it to second. what is the ruling?



Glad I wasn't at the game.

Ace in CT

All rule references and interps 2009 LLBB Rule Book and Casebook
1) R1 (LLBB 7.13)...this runner can now legally attempt to advance to 2nd base (he can run, walk, walk slowly, crawl), or attempt to draw a throw from the catcher as he tries to get back to 1st base. The fact that "he is moving so slowly" has no bearing on the play. Tha fact is by rule, r1 can do what he's doing and by rule the defense can make a play on R1 if they choose to do so.
2) The batter...and he is still a batter NOT a batter-runner...(LLBB 2.0 Pg.51)and (LLBB 6.09)...and is OUT (LLBB 6.06 c):
"The batter is out for illegal action when
(c) interfering with the catcher's fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter's box OR making any other movement that hinders the catcher's play at home base." Also reference LLBB Casebook 6.06 Pg.22-23.

>Was the batter out of the batter's box? YES
>Based on the sitch stated in the OP did he have any LEGAL reason to be where he was when strcuk by the throw? NO (His confusion as to wether it was ball 3 or 4 does not matter..as according to the OP the PU only called the pitch a Ball...not "Ball 4").
>Did the batter's action cause interference of the throw by the catcher as he attempted to make a play that BY RULE he was entitled to make? YES
>RULING:INTERFERENCE ON THE BATTER. Batter is out. R1 goes back to 1st. Two outs, 3&2 count on the batter.

If you work a lot of LLBB odd plays like this will and do occur. At both the LLBB annual regional clinics and their umpire's school, the national and regional umpire staffs preach the concept of advantage/disadvantage when these weird situatons happen. Apply the proper LLB rule and/or interpertation is the first step, but always make sure neither team gained an advantage or was put at a disadvantage by the actions of the other team if somehow the rule/interp does not fit the particular sitch perfectly.
It's LLBB...it's a different world than big diamond ball. Also, if you are a rgistered LL umpire, you can call your regional headquarters and get an official ruling/interpertation from the staff. If this play occured during LLBB tournament play (district level right up to the LLWS), and the on filed ruling was protested, a call to the regional office is made right then and there before play can continue.

[NFump]

[quote=PeteBooth;612665]

I agree with Steve

Let's simply change the dinamics in the OP. No one on first. B1 K's but ball is is dropped by F2 or gets away from F2.

B1 starts to run to first base and F2's throw hits B1 in the back. B1 was IN THE running lane.

What's your call?

I gather from your response above you would have interference and IMO you would be wrong.

You cannot let "F2 off the hook" on bad throws.

As Steve said a good F2 KNOWS how to throw. You will hear F2 or F3 say INSIDE / OUTSIDE so that there is a CLEAR throwing lane for F2.

IMO, most are "hung-up" on the fact that the batter in this OP is NOT a runner so the simply fact that he ran to first is cause for interference.

You need to LOOK at the ENTIRE play. Also, do NOT reward the defense because F2 made an errant throw.

Pete Booth

Well, thank you for answering for me instead of just asking and letting me answer. But I shall endeavor to give you a reply anyway even though your mind is made up about what I would do.

First off, when you "changed the dynamics of the OP" you completely changed the ruling. No, that's not interference because, by rule, it says it's not. The RUNNER is afforded protection from interfering by staying in the lane (unless he intentionally interferes).

I suppose any time the catcher throws and hits the RUNNER in this sitch you've given (out of the lane on the grass, or out of the lane in foul territory) it's a poor throw by the catcher? Because "As Steve said a good F2 KNOWS how to throw. You will hear F2 or F3 say INSIDE / OUTSIDE so that there is a CLEAR throwing lane for F2."

[GA Umpire]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;612665]

I agree with Steve

Let's simply change the dinamics in the OP. No one on first. B1 K's but ball is is dropped by F2 or gets away from F2.

B1 starts to run to first base and F2's throw hits B1 in the back. B1 was IN THE running lane.

What's your call?

I gather from your response above you would have interference and IMO you would be wrong.

You cannot let "F2 off the hook" on bad throws.

As Steve said a good F2 KNOWS how to throw. You will hear F2 or F3 say INSIDE / OUTSIDE so that there is a CLEAR throwing lane for F2.

IMO, most are "hung-up" on the fact that the batter in this OP is NOT a runner so the simply fact that he ran to first is cause for interference.

You need to LOOK at the ENTIRE play. Also, do NOT reward the defense because F2 made an errant throw.

Pete Booth

I did not read the OP as a bad throw. I read the OP as R1 is off the base and F2 is trying to pick him off. Then, the batter, thinking he can run, ran in front of F2 as F2 is throwing the ball to 1B as a pick off. I read it as F2 did not know the batter was trying to run and ran in front of his throw. To see it any other way would be a HTBT b/c I am imagining it as F2 is trying to pick off R1 and the batter got in the way out of the box.

Therefore, I have BI with batter out and R1 back to 1B. I believe it depends upon how you imagine the play as to what the call is. Especially if it is a LHB and he breaks as soon as F2 catches and starts to throw to 1B and the batter suddenly gets in the way. I do not imagine it as a poorly thrown ball. I imagine it as a pick off and the batter [which may be LH] stepped in front of the throw as F2 is coming up to throw.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NFump

one out, man on first base. count is 2-2 on the batter. pitcher throws ball 3. batter thinks it is ball 4 and starts to run to first base. the runner on 1st thinks it must be ball 4 also and starts to walk to 2nd. the catcher, knows it is ball 3 and now attempts to pick the runner off at 1st base off since he is moving so slowly. the thrown ball by the catcher now hits the batter-runner and the runner on first now makes it to second. what is the ruling?


Who is this batter? Mercury? What did he do......leave for first as the pitcher started to pitch? Do you actually think the catcher waited that long to throw down to first? Please show me where it states he's way out in front of F2 or has even reached the running lane much less whether or not he's in it (like it matters in this case), but let's roll with it.

The BATTER is halfway (35 to 45 feet) to first when catcher "pegs" him in the back, has the BATTER stepped out of the box? Well yes he has. Did he interfere with the catcher's throw to retire a runner? Yep, knocked it down with his back as he was running (in the running lane no less) to first. Is he guilty of Batter's Interference? Absoforkinlutely!

Here's how I see it: The BATTER is most likely just clearing the lefty batter's box and getting directly in front of F2 AS HE IS THROWING to first. That's not an "errant throw", "poor defense", "a crappy throw"or "poor aim". IT'S INTERFERENCE. Nor is it any of those in your example, IT'S INTERFERENCE.

6.8 BATTER INTERFERES WITH CATCHER

Under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(c), if the batter interferes with the catcher's THROW TO RETIRE A RUNNER by STEPPING OUT OF THE BATTER'S BOX, the plate umpire SHALL call "interference". The batter is OUT and the ball is dead(provided the catcher's initial throw does not retire the runner; see following paragraph). And so on and so forth. (notice is says "shall")

MLBUM 6.10 BATTER INTERFERES WITH CATCHER'S THROW BACK TO PITCHER (notice it says throw).

Skip on down to the second paragraph, last two lines where it says:

If the batter interferes with the catcher's THROW TO RETIRE A RUNNER by stepping out of the batter's box, interference SHALL be called on the batter under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(c). (See Section 6.8)
To reiterate....Did the batter step out of the box? Yes
Did the catcher throw in an attempt to retire a runner? Yes
Did batter interfere with said throw? Yes
Is it an out? You bet your bippy.

Obscure Dick Martin reference aside, you are the one reading into the OP. This is most likely a Little League-type game, with an indecisive catcher, runners who don't know what the F they're doing, likewise the batter, who has already started running, not walking, to 1st base. Yes, the catcher probably didn't throw right away, because by all admissions, he didn't know where to throw the ball. It certainly was a bad throw, and nothing more.

A coach or bench player that unintentionally touches a thrown ball is not guilty of interference, any more than was the batter in this case.

Also, I firmly believe that both the rule and MLBUM interpretation is referring to the catcher's throw, not the ball after the throw. Interfering with the catcher's throw of the ball. The physical act of throwing the ball, not what happens after the catcher uncorks a wild throw. The catcher in this case is obviously inexperienced at best. He doesn't know how to say, "inside, inside," or "outside, outside" to F3, and find a way to get around the batter. I guess he figures the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and by God he is going to throw it right through the batter's back, come hell or high water.

Rewarding an errant throw by bailing out the hapless catcher is not the proper ruling on this particular play, IMO and IMOO as well.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I agree with Steve

Let's simply change the dinamics in the OP. No one on first. B1 K's but ball is is dropped by F2 or gets away from F2.

B1 starts to run to first base and F2's throw hits B1 in the back. B1 was IN THE running lane.

What's your call?

I gather from your response above you would have interference and IMO you would be wrong.

You cannot let "F2 off the hook" on bad throws.

As Steve said a good F2 KNOWS how to throw. You will hear F2 or F3 say INSIDE / OUTSIDE so that there is a CLEAR throwing lane for F2.

IMO, most are "hung-up" on the fact that the batter in this OP is NOT a runner so the simply fact that he ran to first is cause for interference.

You need to LOOK at the ENTIRE play. Also, do NOT reward the defense because F2 made an errant throw.

Pete Booth

Exactly right.

Originally Posted by NFump

I suppose any time the catcher throws and hits the RUNNER in this sitch you've given (out of the lane on the grass, or out of the lane in foul territory) it's a poor throw by the catcher?

Correct, it is a poor throw. There is no reason F2 can't throw around a runner. It is interference if the runner interferes with F3's ability to catch the ball, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a poor throw.

Originally Posted by NFump

Because "As Steve said a good F2 KNOWS how to throw. You will hear F2 or F3 say INSIDE / OUTSIDE so that there is a CLEAR throwing lane for F2."

Exactly. Any catcher worth the price of his shin guards knows how to find a clear throwing lane. Sheesh.

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I did not read the OP as a bad throw. I read the OP as R1 is off the base and F2 is trying to pick him off. Then, the batter, thinking he can run, ran in front of F2 as F2 is throwing the ball to 1B as a pick off. I read it as F2 did not know the batter was trying to run and ran in front of his throw. To see it any other way would be a HTBT b/c I am imagining it as F2 is trying to pick off R1 and the batter got in the way out of the box.

Therefore, I have BI with batter out and R1 back to 1B. I believe it depends upon how you imagine the play as to what the call is. Especially if it is a LHB and he breaks as soon as F2 catches and starts to throw to 1B and the batter suddenly gets in the way. I do not imagine it as a poorly thrown ball. I imagine it as a pick off and the batter [which may be LH] stepped in front of the throw as F2 is coming up to throw.

Right, it depends on how you imagine the play. That's really all we can do since we weren't there and there is no video. Darn the luck.