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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 17, 2006, 09:14pm
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Little League D-2

I have a couple questions from a game today.

1- Bases loaded 2 outs, batter hits the ball toward 1st baseman who is playing inside the base line by 6-8 feet. He attempts to get the ball but it gets past him and hits the runner progressing from 1st to second. Is the runner out?

2 - in our leaugue D-2 ball, there is no stealing but the pitcher may attempt to pickoff a runner from the stretch position. Now, runners on 1st and third, a foul ball is hit, the runner on third is still out on his lead off from the foul, the ball is thrown back to the pitcher who is not on the mound who then throws to the third baseman who picks the ball up off the ground and runs over to tag the third base runner out. Is the ball live before the pitcher returns to the mound?

Interested in others opinions,
Thanks!
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2006, 09:29pm
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If the first situation it would depend on where the ball was hit and where the second baseman was playing. If the second baseman had a chance to make a play the runner would be called out.

In the second situation, no, the ball is not live until the umpire makes it live. This should not happen until all runners have returned to their base.
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2006, 09:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llcoach
I have a couple questions from a game today.

1- Bases loaded 2 outs, batter hits the ball toward 1st baseman who is playing inside the base line by 6-8 feet. He attempts to get the ball but it gets past him and hits the runner progressing from 1st to second. Is the runner out?

2 - in our leaugue D-2 ball, there is no stealing but the pitcher may attempt to pickoff a runner from the stretch position. Now, runners on 1st and third, a foul ball is hit, the runner on third is still out on his lead off from the foul, the ball is thrown back to the pitcher who is not on the mound who then throws to the third baseman who picks the ball up off the ground and runs over to tag the third base runner out. Is the ball live before the pitcher returns to the mound?

Interested in others opinions,
Thanks!
1. i dont have the runner being out. the ball passed the first baseman, and the ball would be live if hitting the runner. now if F3 is playing back and the ball hits the runner before passing a fielder, then you have an out.

2. the ball is live when the umpire points/calls the ball in play. i do not have an out here, as i wouldnt have put the ball in play at this point. the runner stays and we move on.
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2006, 10:50pm
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ditto and ditto...
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2006, 11:34pm
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Coach:

Walt probably gave you the more concise answer. If in the umpires judgment the second baseman had a chance to make a play on the ball then the runner is called out for interference, even if the ball had passed immediately back of the first baseman.

This is from the J/R.


It is interference by a runner (Batter-Runner included) if:


2. A batted ball touches him after passing a fringe infielder and another infielder had a play opportunity.

R2, one out, A grounder to the third baseman's left. He dives, but cannot touch the ball, and the ball hits the runner a few feet in front of the shortstop, who is expecting to field it: interference.

However, it is not interference if a batted ball touches him (unintentionally) after passing a fringe infielder and no other infielder had a play opportunity.

R3 and R1, first baseman is playing "in" (several feet in front of R1, who is leading off). The batter hits a hard grounder to the first baseman's right. He cannot touch it and it strikes R1. The second baseman had no chance of fielding the ball: no interference The ball is live.



Here is the OBR rule and subsequent Evans professional interpretation.


7.09(m) It is interference by a batter or a runner when a fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball goes through or by an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches the runner after having been deflected by a fielder, the umpire shall not declare the runner out for being touched by a batted ball. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the fielder, and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball. If, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner deliberately and intentionally kicks such a batted ball on which the infielder has missed a play, then the runner shall be called out for interference.


Professional Interpretation: Ordinarily, when a runner is struck with a fair ball, he is legitimately out. There are situations, however, in which he is not out:

(1) The fair ball touches him after going between the legs of an infielder, unless he allows the ball to strike him intentionally;

(2) The fair ball touches him after passing immediately by an infielder, unless he allows the ball to touch him intentionally. “Immediately by” is considered as being within one arm's reach. If the fielder should have fielded the ball with ordinary effort but failed, the runner is not declared out.

(3) The ball touches him after being deflected, unless he intentionally interferes. An American League directive orders that the runner shall not be called out even if another infielder had a chance to make a play (unless his actions are designed to interfere with the deflected ball.)




Tim.
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Old Sun Jun 18, 2006, 06:27am
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And, as long as we're at it, coach, for future reference: the hands are NOT part of the bat.
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Old Sun Jun 18, 2006, 11:40am
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And you CAN have a part of your foot on the plate when you hit the ball.
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Old Sun Jun 18, 2006, 11:53am
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Thanks

Thank you for the rule listings and consults. As it is, both calls were against my team, both called out.

The batter hit by the ball was about 6 feet from 1st base, so second baseman was no where around, next player to have a chance at the ball was the Right fielder. When I questioned this to the umpire, which I do understand these are teenage kids and this is 9 year old baseball, I was told that the batter is out no matter what if hit by the ball.

In the second issue, the rule book states that the ball is dead unless hit or bunted, then list an exception that the pitcher may pickoff a base runner throwing from the stretch position. The pitcher had gotten the ball back , but never returned to the rubber. Even though I had the rule book in hand and read the rule to both opposing team coaches and both umpires, they basically said the call was made move on.

On the positive side we did win the game, but we had runners in scoring postion in both situations and cost us runs.

I was frustrated and appreciate that the way I interpret the rules seems to be apporpriate.

Thanks!
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Old Sun Jun 18, 2006, 01:40pm
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Congrats on winning the game!!

My experience with working with and training teenaged umpires is, if you get their best effort strike/ball, fair/foul, out/safe calls then you are doing pretty well. There were always exceptional teenaged umpires, but they were the exceptions, particularly at the lower levels of Little League.

More advanced interps and mechanics are trully the exception to the rule. I have found that very FEW put the ball into play after a dead ball situation (I've even had some adults neglect to do this). Interference/obstruction is an advanced judgement call that I always trained on, but it is very hard to get consistantly applied.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 10:21pm
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Bob P,
I agree completely that all I ever really ask is that they call it consistantly for both teams. As a wise man once told me, if you don't want to make mistakes, dont get out of bed. So I expect no more from anyone else. I was just a bit taken aback that they had never heard anything about the rule of the running being safe if the ball had passed an infielder.

After the game I made a point to tell the young man he did a good job and not to take the complaints to heart. I did advise him to look into the rules I questioned him about for future games.
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Old Tue Jun 20, 2006, 08:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llcoach
I have a couple questions from a game today.

1- Bases loaded 2 outs, batter hits the ball toward 1st baseman who is playing inside the base line by 6-8 feet. He attempts to get the ball but it gets past him and hits the runner progressing from 1st to second. Is the runner out?
How close was the ball to the first baseman when it went past? Was the first baseman moving or did it go through his legs?
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Old Tue Jun 20, 2006, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
And you CAN have a part of your foot on the plate when you hit the ball.
In OBR, yes. In FED, no. In FED if the batter's foot is touching the plate when he hits a fair or foul ball, he is out.

Just clarifying, I know we are talking LL here.
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Old Tue Jun 20, 2006, 11:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llcoach
Even though I had the rule book in hand and read the rule to both opposing team coaches and both umpires, they basically said the call was made move on.
Did you ask the umpire permission to pull out the rule book?
I'll bet not.

Though they may have booted these two calls out of ignorance, they also failed to boot you out of ignorance.

See, it all evens out!!
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Old Tue Jun 20, 2006, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llcoach
Even though I had the rule book in hand and read the rule to both opposing team coaches and both umpires,

hmmm......
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Old Tue Jun 20, 2006, 01:03pm
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Little League?

Quote:
Originally Posted by llcoach
In the second issue, the rule book states that the ball is dead unless hit or bunted, then list an exception that the pitcher may pickoff a base runner throwing from the stretch position. The pitcher had gotten the ball back , but never returned to the rubber. Even though I had the rule book in hand and read the rule to both opposing team coaches and both umpires, they basically said the call was made move on.
That doesn't sound like the Little League (tm) rule book, nor is D-2 a LL designation. I suspect that I can't answer your question because I doubt if I've read your rulebook.

In LL, a foul ball is dead (5.09 (d)), and it becomes live again when (optionally) the umpire calls "play" after the pitcher takes position on the pitcher's plate with the ball (5.11).

I say "optionally," because by convention the ball is also live if the umpire merely points or forgets to say, "play."

At some point, Coach, when your team has advanced to higher levels of umpiring, you'll find that reading the rulebook to the umpires is a bad idea.
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