I don't believe my league.....

[wobster]

As anyone knows who has been watching the thread Advice on chirping, I ejected my first fan after 8 years of umpiring saturday. I thought it to be a good ejection, as did some other umpires and people around baseball told me, and a few here told me not to worry about it, just to keep practicing my ejections - throw more people out.

I just talked to my league president, I am the vice president, and he chewed my butt for throwing the guy out! He said "there is always going to be some complaints about your calls, umpiring is a thankless job." I explained the situation to him, he said I should have not ejected him, just told the coach to take care of him. I quote "I realize you are the new sherriff, with the new badge, and I know you got the power, but this is an instructional league, and we want to set a good example." What kind of example is a parent who is raising hell and disrupting the game?

Apparently, my BU, who is also on the board, decided it was a bad ejection and that he needed to tell on me.

It shouldn't matter if it was a good ejection or not, he should back me no matter what I decide, as I am the head umpire, and a board member.

Next year, obviously, I am not going to umpire for this league if I have a choice.

[Edited by wobster on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 10:16 AM]

[Gee]

"I ejected my first fan"

Umpires do not have the authority to eject fans unless they are on the field of play. Home team managers, and the constabulary have that right, let's keep it that way. G.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Gee

"I ejected my first fan"

Umpires do not have the authority to eject fans unless they are on the field of play. Home team managers, and the constabulary have that right, let's keep it that way. G.

GEE, you are talking semantics. Umpires do Ejecet fans. It goes something like this when you have a Fan who is making it virtually impossible to play the game or is causing a ruckus.

Blue: TIME (takes out the line-up card) and then says: Skip is that your Fan

Skip: Yes he /she is at all of our games

Blue: Either the Fan goes or we stop right here.

Skip: Blue I'll take care of it

Therefore, in essence no matter how you call it, Blue in effect did Eject the Fan. The difference is that we don't specifically tell the Fan to Leave as we would a player, but the bottom line is the Fan is Ejected or we go home for the day.

Therefore, when individuals say Umpires do not eject fans is simply semantics because the bottom line is they either leave (ejected) or we go home.

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by wobster
As anyone knows who has been watching the thread Advice on chirping, I ejected my first fan after 8 years of umpiring saturday.

Well, you're going from the frying pan into the fire. Unless you are in a stadium with police protection you should never extend beyond the field. Even then, it's not advisable.

I thought it to be a good ejection, as did some other umpires and people around baseball told me, and a few here told me not to worry about it, just to keep practicing my ejections - throw more people out.

Now that's real sound advice, "throw more people out". It's begining to sound like you are taking advice from the horse's a$$ - and it's going to cost you some teeth very soon!

I just talked to my league president, I am the vice president, and he chewed my butt for throwing the guy out! He said "there is always going to be some complaints about your calls, umpiring is a thankless job."

I think that you should listen to this guy. He's absolutley right.

Look, I don't care if the fan is disrupting the game, there are other ways of dealing with it. Get both coaches together, clear the field and let them tell the fans that if this doesn't stop, the game will not continue.

[Gee]

It's not semantics Pete. It's simple English.

In the original post the poster said he ejected the fan. That clearly means that he personally ejected the fan.

In your post the umpire HAD the fan ejected BY the Manager. That clearly means that the Manager ejected the fan, not the umpire.

If you see someone steal a ladies purse and tell the nearby cop who then arrests him, who made the arrest. Certainly it wasn't you although you did HAVE him arrested by a person with the authority. Simple. G.

[wobster]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Well, you're going from the frying pan into the fire. Unless you are in a stadium with police protection you should never extend beyond the field. Even then, it's not advisable.

Now that's real sound advice, "throw more people out". It's begining to sound like you are taking advice from the horse's a$$ - and it's going to cost you some teeth very soon!

I think that you should listen to this guy. He's absolutley right.

Look, I don't care if the fan is disrupting the game, there are other ways of dealing with it. Get both coaches together, clear the field and let them tell the fans that if this doesn't stop, the game will not continue.

Yes, I should have had the skipper take care of it, we talked about that in the other post. I should have tossed the coach that was giving me problems, and had the manager toss the fan or get him in line, I know that, now. But ironically enough, I did have police protection, as the other coach was a cop.

And it was His High Holiness who told me to eject more people. I am not going to eject somebody unless it is bad, anyway.

My stance remains, though, that the president should have my back, as he does the other umpires. It was my call. But the biggest problem I had is that he told me I was power hungry because I through out 1 person in 8 years.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by wobster

Next year, obviously, I am not going to umpire for this league if I have a choice.

[Edited by wobster on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 10:16 AM]

Wobster;

Sooner or later, umpires that want to get good, give up on kiddie ball. Some kiddie ball leagues support their umpires, and some do not.

You have run into one that does not. If it makes you feel any better, back in the 1980's, I had the same problems as you, except in my case, the kiddie league fired me. I ejected an 11 year old for hurling his bat and helmet in anger after striking out. I was told that we did not embarass kids by ejecting them because their self esteem was too fragile. (This particular kid came from a broken home. His father had abandoned the family two weeks earlier and then the mean umpire threw him out of a game.) I told them that I would not tolerate such behavior and it was not my concern what the kid's personal problems were. They told me that I was done.

It was the best thing that could have happened. I joined a real umpire group and started moving up the food chain. If you have put in eight years in the trenches, it's time to get out. There are better challenges ahead. Or,find a kiddie league that makes parents and coaches sign behavior contracts AND ENFORCES THEM.

Peter

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wobster
[B]As anyone knows who has been watching the thread Advice on chirping, I ejected my first fan after 8 years of umpiring saturday.

On what authority?

I thought it to be a good ejection, as did some other umpires and people around baseball told me, and a few here told me not to worry about it, just to keep practicing my ejections - throw more people out.

Oh, wonderful advice.

I just talked to my league president, I am the vice president, and he chewed my butt for throwing the guy out! He said "there is always going to be some complaints about your calls, umpiring is a thankless job."

True dat.

I explained the situation to him, he said I should have not ejected him, just told the coach to take care of him.

Wise man.

I quote "I realize you are the new sherriff, with the new badge, and I know you got the power, but this is an instructional league, and we want to set a good example." What kind of example is a parent who is raising hell and disrupting the game?

What kind of example is an umpire overextending his authority? If you followed your presidents advice the situation would have been handled and you wouldn't be in your current predicament.

Apparently, my BU, who is also on the board, decided it was a bad ejection and that he needed to tell on me. It shouldn't matter if it was a good ejection or not, he should back me no matter what I decide, as I am the head umpire, and a board member.

Being a board member shouldn't excuse you from bad calls. The BU should have backed you on the field, but off the field he has an obligation to report that type of behavior.

Next year, obviously, I am not going to umpire for this league if I have a choice.

You might not be umpiring for them and it might not be your choice.

[GarthB]

I have no problem with your advice to move out and up,but what happened to your philosophy of giving the customer what he wants? And what happened to your position on umpire's policing their ranks?


This league doesn't want this behavior. The BU was doing his job.

This type of situation doesn't end at kiddie ball. If the poster takes his same beliefs with him as he goes onward and upward, his problems will go with him. And while he might go onward, he probably won't go upward.

[wobster]

Garth - Can I not make a mistake?

I admitted I was wrong ejecting the fan, and I should have gone to the coach, but I had not recieved any advice prior to that. Since, I have recieved advice and now I know what I should do next time.

Umpires in this league have always ejected fans at least as I remember. I remember parents getting ejected when I was playing. There were at least 3 or 4 a year. I was going on what I remembered, as I haven't seen fans get bad enough in the years I have umpired that they needed to be ejected. In the other leagues around, it is not uncommon for umpires to clear the stands, or throw out 3 and 4 parents at a time. Granted they are not right, but it happens. Fans around this area get a little rowdy.

I have learned from my mistake, but I do not believe I should have recieved a butt chewing. I do not handle the other umpires that way, I let them know what they did and what they should have done.

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wobster
Garth - Can I not make a mistake?

Certainly. We all do. But didn't you post this for comment?

I admitted I was wrong ejecting the fan, and I should have gone to the coach, but I had not recieved any advice prior to that. Since, I have recieved advice and now I know what I should do next time.

I thought I read somewhere that you had umpires for 8 years. Is that right? So in 8 years you have never been told your authority is pretty much on your side of the backstop?

Umpires in this league have always ejected fans at least as I remember. I remember parents getting ejected when I was playing. There were at least 3 or 4 a year. I was going on what I remembered, as I haven't seen fans get bad enough in the years I have umpired that they needed to be ejected. In the other leagues around, it is not uncommon for umpires to clear the stands, or throw out 3 and 4 parents at a time. Granted they are not right, but it happens. Fans around this area get a little rowdy.

If your league is being inconsistent with you, then you have a legitimate *****. But only about he consistency, not over their, apparently, current policy of not ejecting fans.

I have learned from my mistake, but I do not believe I should have recieved a butt chewing. I do not handle the other umpires that way, I let them know what they did and what they should have done.

Butt chewings come standard equipment with some mistakes. I've had mine gnawed on pretty well in the past. And they come in various forms and intensities. The umpires that you "let them know what they did and what they should have done." probably consider that a butt chewing.

Get over it.

But if you don't want diverse comments about something, don't post it here.

[wobster]

I have umpired for 8 years, and no, I don't recall being told it was wrong to eject fans, as I have seen it happen in many games around here. I may have been, but I have not made this particular mistake before, so it didn't register.

[Gee]

From what you now say about ejecting the fan, I can better understand your actions. You simply didn't know you couldn't do that.

Your President should have known that and handled the situation, after the fact, a tad more graciously, especially where you are the Vice President.

He could have said: Hey Wobby, I heard about that sitch yesterday when you threw out that fan. I heard he was a real low life and deserved to be thrown out.

I know it is not in the rules but WE are not allowed to eject fans unless they are on the field so WE have to be carefull.

Next time it happens Wobby, go to the home team manager and tell him if this fan is not brought under control this game will be forfeited to the other team. That should take care of the problem. Good job, see ya Wob.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by GarthB
I have no problem with your advice to move out and up,but what happened to your philosophy of giving the customer what he wants? And what happened to your position on umpire's policing their ranks?


This league doesn't want this behavior. The BU was doing his job.

This type of situation doesn't end at kiddie ball. If the poster takes his same beliefs with him as he goes onward and upward, his problems will go with him. And while he might go onward, he probably won't go upward.

GarthB;

My critics have often deliberately misinterpreted my advice of "Give the customer what he wants!" To wit:

I have never advocated letting the coaches or players misbehave. Just because they want to scream at the umpire is no reason to let them.

Here is what I do mean by giving the customer what he wants:

If BOTH coaches show up at the plate conference and want to play by certain rules, as long as it does not compromise safety, I am going along with their desires. I simply am not going to enforce rules that neither of them want enforced unless it has to do with safety. Over the years, here are some examples:

1. Don't call balks. Fine, I can live with that. Or give warnings only. (I have not had to do this in 10 years since I no longer work at these levels.)

2. We want to play only five innings but we'll give you a full fee. The Virginia High School League (VHSL) has forbidden this practice. They hate it. However, if the coaches show up at the plate conference and my assignor has approved it, they are going to get what they want. When the VHSL pays my fee is when I'll start listening to the VHSL.

3. All manner of modifications to FED rules (excluding safety). Usually these revolve around balks, visits, the DH, and appeals.

4. Free substitutions.

5. Imposing slaughter rules and time limits (as long as I am the beneficiary in terms of time.)

My critics hate my attitude towards letting the coaches write the rules. Therefore, they deliberately lie and imply that I let the coaches compromise safety or compromise behavior. That does not happen where I umpire. I have just such an example that I am working on for the paid part of this site. Stay tuned.

I did not understand the 2nd paragraph of your post with regards to the BU.

To put your third paragraph in context, Wobster told us that he had never thrown someone out of a game. I told him that he needed to learn this skill pronto. He made a mistake in his choice of target. Big deal, who cares. He is learning. Anyway, he had success because everyone shut up. He learned something there about the power of ejection. That's a success story in umpiring education.

Finally, from what he describes, no one is policing anything in the league that he works. When 15 year old 1st base coaches are yelling at umpires, something is wrong with the league administration. It's time to leave.

Peter

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness


GarthB;

My critics have often deliberately misinterpreted my advice of "Give the customer what he wants!"

No, your critics just think it is the dumbest thing they have ever heard. For one if you understand anything about business, it is not our job to answer any questions and to have them walk away happy. That is not our job. Our job is to run the game. Call the game by the rules. Use common sense. And if we can not interfere in the game. That is the reason the "give the customer what he wants" does not apply to umpiring or any officiating for that matter.

Peace