run down & following runner

[UMP25]

This reminded me of an actual play that occurred during an NCAA game this spring. I swear it, this weird schit always happens in MY games (and no comment needed from you, Mr. Jenkins)...

I'm working the dish. Runners on second and third with 1 out when the batter hits the ball to a drawn in third baseman. R3 heads toward home and gets into a rundown between home and third. Meanwhile, R2 heads toward third and the batter-runner is trotting around first on his way to second.

R3 makes it back to third and is on the base, but so is R2. The defense tags R3 while he's on the base, then as they go to tag R2, HE walks off the base and runs back to second (the batter-runner is standing there). When the defense had tagged R3 on third base, my partner immediately declares him out as R2 runs back toward second and R3 proceeds to come home and cross the plate; but we're not finished here. R2 is tagged out on his way back to second, and the defense walks off the field figuring there are three outs. But are there?

Feel free to comment and I'll fill you in on what I did on this play.

[Steven Tyler]

I would hope you left R3 on third and B/R on second and corrected your partners mistake.

[UMP25]

As I said, I'll chime in later regarding what I did (a couple of things, actually). I can tell you THIS much: I did make sure the final outcome was the correct one.

[tibear]

Of course, if the offence doesn't do anything you don't do anything but I have a feeling any half decent manager is coming out to discuss the situation.

As the manager is coming out, I would call time and immediately call over the BU to discuss the situation. Inform him that R3 would have been safe when he was tagged on third base because he is has precendence to the bag ahead of R2. Then let him reverse his out call of R3.

At the end I would have BR at second base, 2 outs and run scored.

The defense may complain but ignorance of the rules isn't a defense. (Even if one of the umpires doesn't know the rule.)

[UMP25]

Oh, the manager (a.k.a. head coach) did come out. In fact, he never moves from his chair near the dugout--as the NCAA's all-time winningest head coach I guess he has earned the right to do that, LOL--but when my partner made the call and everything ended, the head coach AND the third base coach were out there on the field arguing. I immediately got out there to separate everyone and talk to my partner. More details to follow...

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by UMP25

As I said, I'll chime in later regarding what I did (a couple of things, actually). I can tell you THIS much: I did make sure the final outcome was the correct one.

If I thought R3 scored BECAUSE of the improper call, we HAVE to put him back on 3rd. And that is probably the case here.

So, I would have 1 out, BR on 2nd, R3 on third, and working the rest of the game solo after I overrule BU on the rules misinterpretation and he leaves in a huff.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Oh, the manager (a.k.a. head coach) did come out. In fact, he never moves from his chair near the dugout--as the NCAA's all-time winningest head coach I guess he has earned the right to do that, LOL--but when my partner made the call and everything ended, the head coach AND the third base coach were out there on the field arguing. I immediately got out there to separate everyone and talk to my partner. More details to follow...

Coach Gus? Or has someone passed him?

[UMP25]

Coach Gillespie, who came out of retirement at the age of 80-something.

[UMP25]

Editor's Note: It was an NCAA D3 game playing under NAIA Rules, which is actually irrelevant here, because both NCAA and OBR treat this the same way.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Coach Gus? Or has someone passed him?

Augie Garrido has done that.

[UMP25]

Anyway, here's what I did...

When the defense (mistakenly) believed there were 3 outs and ran off the field, I knew that by rule, there were only 2, because R3 was not out at third, my partner's call notwithstanding. So, upon seeing the batter-runner on second and knowing he could or might take off to third, I called "time" and killed everything so I could straighten this mess out.

I went to my partner after politely separating the two coaches from him and asked my partner, "Bob, whom did you call out and why? I just want to clarify this." He said R3. I told him that in this particular situation, because there was no force, R3 retained his right to third base and could not be called out if he was tagged while on the base and R2 was on it, too. Now, because R2 was tagged off a base during his rundown back to second, his out remains. However, what to do with R3?

Neither NCAA nor OBR have any provision for putting R3 back to third--he was not out, remember--and umpire fairness/or correction doesn't come into play here. Because R3 was never out and he legally advanced to home, he became a legally scored run, and a run legally scored in such situations cannot be "unscored." Therefore, I did not disallow his run by sending him back to third base. By rule, he legally scored, and this trumps any idea of correcting an umpire's call (which, BTW, is limited to a very few situations in NCAA/OBR). As a result of R2 being properly out but R3 not, there were only two outs. So, I waved the defense back onto the field and prepared to explain this all to the defensive team's head coach.

Surprisingly, he was rather calm about it--not screaming or ranting--and never did get ejected. However, he kept bringing up the "but you guys screwed up so you have to put that runner back onto third base" argument. I repeatedly but politely explained to him that by rule, I could not do that here and that by rule R3 scored. I think my partner was rather surprised by my wording, as I told Matt, the defensive head coach in question, that "we did indeed make a mistake." Never once did I refer to this as my partner's mistake, even though it was, and never once did I throw my partner under the bus, even though I wanted to. I referred to the screw-up as "we" but emphasized that my decision was final.

He asked me after the inning eventually ended if he could protest the game, but I had to explain to him that he was a bit too late for that. Then he said something that didn't exactly please me when he said, "You guys owe me, Randy. You're gonna have to give something back to me for that."

"I'll pretend I didn't hear that, Matt," was my succinct reply. That was the end of that.

[tibear]

Of course I agree with everything you say, except the fact that you shouldn't have overruled your partner but let him change his own call.

Then when the sh%t hits the fan you can step in to help explain the situation but never jump over you partner's head and overrule his call.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tibear

Of course I agree with everything you say, except the fact that you shouldn't have overruled your partner but let him change his own call.

Then when the sh%t hits the fan you can step in to help explain the situation but never jump over you partner's head and overrule his call.

This advice you are giving would apply had this been a judgment call. However, this call is a rule interpretation call, which should be immediately addressed by the other umpire, without waiting for that partner to change his own call. You do not overrule a judgment call, but rule calls you need to.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I went to my partner after politely separating the two coaches from him and asked my partner, "Bob,

I wish to clarify that I had nothing to do with this play.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

This advice you are giving would apply had this been a judgment call. However, this call is a rule interpretation call, which should be immediately addressed by the other umpire, without waiting for that partner to change his own call. You do not overrule a judgment call, but rule calls you need to.

Steve, I understand what your saying but anytime I see umpire change the call of another umpire (even rule interpretations) I feel it reduces the respect for the original umpire. At least let the guy be man enough to correct his own misunderstanding of the rule.

Everyone knows which umpire knew the rule but shouldn't the umpire who is responsible for making a particular call actually make the call or should the UIC always be the guy to overturn rule interpretations regardless of you actually made the original call?