Bratter-Runner VS Runner

whiskers_ump · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 08:14am

Rec ball, no special ground rules....Pretty good game for 12U rec in
progress....Top of 3rd 1 out already, batter strikes out and the
catcher drops thrid strike. Batter-runner slowly walks towards 3rd
base coach...F2 returns ball to F1. Coach puts arms around his BR for
brief chat..physically turns her around pushing her towards playing field.
BR walks across playing area towards 1B [non of this action take long
at all]. BR reaches 1st base safetly while defensive team is just
watching the action.

What is your call

glen

Dakota · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 09:23am

BR out - physically assisted by the coach during live ball play. ASA 8-8E.

pob14 · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 09:53am

I'm with Dakota on the call.

I chime in only to point out that I really love Glen's new term "bratter-runner." :-)

POB

Dakota · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 10:16am

I've just had a "duh" moment.

You're asking if 8-8E applies to a batter-runner, right?

Hmmmm...

The ASA rule 1 definitions say a runner has reached 1B and a BR has not. Therefore, rule 8-8 does not apply to the BR.

Rule 8-2 contains no equivalent rule to 8-8E.

NFHS solves this problem with the following very useful statement, A runner is a player of the team at bat who has finished a time at bat and has not yet been put out, or has scored. The term includes the batter-runner and also any runner who occupies a base. (2-14-2)

Hmmmm...

I'll get back to you...

greymule · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 10:47am

Out, but only for the physical assist. Not for walking up the 3B line or failing to go directly to 1B.

whiskers_ump · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
I've just had a "duh" moment.

You're asking if 8-8E applies to a batter-runner, right?

Hmmmm...

Hmmmm...

I'll get back to you...

Yes, that is really my question and sneaking it in without
actually asking that.....good catch...Dakota...

glen

whiskers_ump · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 01:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Out, but only for the physical assist. Not for walking up the 3B line or failing to go directly to 1B.

greymule,

Not questioning your call...because it was your call...just asking
what rule are you applying???? By ASA rule a runner is called out
when assisted. BR is not runner until reaching 1B.

glen

whiskers_ump · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by pob14
I'm with Dakota on the call.

I chime in only to point out that I really love Glen's new term "bratter-runner." :-)

POB

Thank you. Anyone using that term to refer to 10/12U's owes
me the .02....Other age groups too old to be brats.

glen

greymule · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 02:52pm

Actually, Whiskers, you've got me technically. But take the extreme example--a batter falls down five feet short of first, the coach picks her up and plops her on 1B. You know that a casebook would rule that an out, regardless of the definition of "runner." I don't have the rule book with me, but I believe it says the runner is out if assisted by "anyone other than another runner." So here's another example: Runner trips over 2B and falls, F6 helps her up and shoves her on her way safely toward 3B. Physical assist by someone other than another runner. Out, according to the book.

whiskers_ump · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 05:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Actually, Whiskers, you've got me technically. But take the extreme example--a batter falls down five feet short of first, the coach picks her up and plops her on 1B. You know that a casebook would rule that an out, regardless of the definition of "runner." I don't have the rule book with me, but I believe it says the runner is out if assisted by "anyone other than another runner." So here's another example: Runner trips over 2B and falls, F6 helps her up and shoves her on her way safely toward 3B. Physical assist by someone other than another runner. Out, according to the book.

Hmmmmmmm that is certainly a different kinda assist.....
check it and talk later, on way to playoff game...

glen

Patrick McKenna · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 09:10pm

My reaction to this situation would be that although the coach used physical force to emphasize to the player the direction in which he wanted the player to go, he did not physically assist the player.

whiskers_ump · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 26, 2002, 11:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick McKenna
My reaction to this situation would be that although the coach used physical force to emphasize to the player the direction in which he wanted the player to go, he did not physically assist the player.

Patrick,

Welcome to the board

I think if you re-read my originial post, you will see that
I stated that coach physically turns BR around and pushes
her towards 1B. Granted, she still walked towards 1B, but
it was through 3rd base coaches "little nudge"...

I made an out call, but am wondering if that was correct due
to ASA's definition of a Batter- {in this case Bratter-runner}
runner. By responses, I notice that several of you see what I
am getting at. Still looking myself. I did not get any hastle
with call, butttt.....

glen

pob14 · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 27, 2002, 06:52pm

Boy, I must have blown a lot of calls through the years. (I mean, I know I have, but not THIS badly.)

If you guys seriously think that 8-8 doesn't apply to batter-or-bratter-runners then . . .

A. The batter's not out for running 3 feet out of the base path to avoid a tag. (No equivalent in 8-2)

B. The batter's not out if she's tagged before she reaches first. (No equivalent in 8-2)

C. The batter's not out if first is tagged before she reaches it. (No equivalent in 8-2)

Now don't tell me these are covered by 8-2-B (B-R is out when "legally put out"), because if THEY are, why isn't E (physically assisting)? Man, I been callin' WAY too many outs . . .

Well, obviously they ARE all covered by that. The wording just isn't perfectly clear.

When one reads a book written by human beings, one cannot take its language completely literally, because there are bound to be contradictions. One has to look to the intent of the writers and the interpretations through the years. This applies in baseball, in softball, and in the law. (Occasionally this same conversation comes up regarding other famous books. I am offering no opinion here on those books, just so nobody gets mad!)

whiskers_ump · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 27, 2002, 09:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by pob14
Boy, I must have blown a lot of calls through the years. (I mean, I know I have, but not THIS badly.)

If you guys seriously think that 8-8 doesn't apply to batter-or-bratter-runners then . . .

A. The batter's not out for running 3 feet out of the base path to avoid a tag. (No equivalent in 8-2)

B. The batter's not out if she's tagged before she reaches first. (No equivalent in 8-2)

C. The batter's not out if first is tagged before she reaches it. (No equivalent in 8-2)

Now don't tell me these are covered by 8-2-B (B-R is out when "legally put out"), because if THEY are, why isn't E (physically assisting)? Man, I been callin' WAY too many outs . . .

Well, obviously they ARE all covered by that. The wording just isn't perfectly clear.

When one reads a book written by human beings, one cannot take its language completely literally, because there are bound to be contradictions. One has to look to the intent of the writers and the interpretations through the years. This applies in baseball, in softball, and in the law. (Occasionally this same conversation comes up regarding other famous books. I am offering no opinion here on those books, just so nobody gets mad!)

POB,

Books are fatal; they are the curse of the human race. Nine tenths
of existing books are nonsense, and the clever books are the refutation
of that nonsense. QUOTING Benjamin Disraeli

glen

Dakota · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 28, 2002, 07:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by pob14
If you guys seriously think that 8-8 doesn't apply to batter-or-bratter-runners then . . .

Here's the puzzle:
Why does ASA take such care to define BR and runner so that they are never the same thing, have two different rules 8-2 and 8-8 that specifically state BR and Runner are out, then proceed to mix up this supposed purity of terms in their own rules (I'll get to that, below), and obviously leave some rules out of 8-2?

Why not just state that a BR is a runner, like NFHS does?

Your examples, pob14, aren't a problem, though, because they ARE covered by "legally put out" because they are outs caused by the defense making a play, whereas physically assisting is not a "legal put out" but rather an infraction by the offense that results in an out. It is not a "put out" legal or otherwise.

I am reasonably certain ASA did not intend to allow a coach to physically assist a BR, but their rules sure do (taken literally).

However, we can't take the definitions here too literally since ASA 8-8G describes a BR as a runner!

Bottom line: any rule in 8-8 that can logically be applied to a BR should be applied to a BR. (For example, a BR cannot leave early, so that rule logically does not apply.)

Or, putting it another way, is there ANY rule in 8-8 that CAN be applied to a BR that should not be?

I don't think so. ASA needs to fix their definitions.