Game Management??

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

Are you saying you wait while a dugout person chases down a foul ball that's against the fence down the line?

[mcrowder]

Apples, I think you're going to find it pretty unanimous - just call the game. There are those who will stretch the strikezone a bit (I don't - but some do and I don't fault them for it), but you surely don't want to be "looking for outs" or calling interference when it isn't there.

But to me, the worst thing you did was lecture the kid about running up the score. If there is any sportsmanship talk that needs to occur, it's with a coach, not a player (and in my opinion, it shouldn't come from the umpire, but rather from the coach's supervisor). How do you know the coach didn't put in his backup backup 2B, who bats 4-5 times a season. That kid is trying to show his coach he can steal a base. It is NOT our place to tell kids not to try their hardest in every situation. Shame on the coach ... but never the player.

I have "stretched" things in a manner like you describe exactly twice. Both similar... the most recent - one team was just KILLING the other and the bad team just couldn't throw strikes at all. 30-something to 2 or 3. The coach, for about 6 batters, was chiding his players if they didn't swing at anything close (meaning head-high and 6 inches outside). After about 6 batters he calls time and comes to me - tells me just to call anything within reach a strike, just to get his kids to swing. And even with "permission", it took me another 4-5 batters before I really did what he asked, and it felt wrong to do it.

[3appleshigh]

I don't completely disagree with you guys. In fact 99% of me completely agrees. That is why I posted. However, the problem in this league is hot heads and ejections and fights. The schools involved are notorious for having major issues, I was looking at this as a Game management issue Re Making sure no Fights or bad blood, which was very likely, but tempers cooled after this play. The finishing the game aspect was more a before they brawlled, not a get out of a bad game thing. It was 6 runs into that inning, I had no problem with them continuing to play, but wasn't about to have a brawl on my hands. I argued with myself over that call, but I think in this situation, I probably stopped a bigger uglier incident. I still am not sure that was worth doing what I did.

In regards to the player, he was the best player on either team, had played for his provincial team for his age group, and to be honest should have known better. I agree I probably shouldn't have said anything, but the coaches (have no supervisor) and know nothing about the game, were doing nothing, and I had a progressivly angry team of 16-17 and 18yr olds on my hands.
This is a bit of a babysitting league. Every team has 1-4 players who have actually played before thats about it. Skill level of probably 8-10 yr olds with crazy teenage attitudes.

One of the main differences in Canada to the US is the Sheer amount of people involved in the games that have never played or have any real clue as to the game of baseball. So as umpires we have a slight Teaching aspect to our roles when doing those types of games. We have some real good ball, and in those Games I would not have done any of these things, as the Coaches would deal with it. This game was not one of those. One a side note, the looking for strikes was just as you guys talked about opening the zone a ball or a ball and a half, simply trying to get things going. It actually lead to more hits rather than more outs in this case. But at least the game was moving rather than walk after walk.

However, My question also Asked for Suggestions to help me for next time. And sorry allowing a brawl to occur when there is some thing I could do to stop it is still not tops on my list.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

I don't completely disagree with you guys. In fact 99% of me completely agrees. That is why I posted. However, the problem in this league is hot heads and ejections and fights. The schools involved are notorious for having major issues, I was looking at this as a Game management issue Re Making sure no Fights or bad blood, which was very likely, but tempers cooled after this play. .

I don't think calling a phantom interference and then lecturing one of the few kids that knows it wasn't interference is going to calm the natives.
I think a bad call and a lecture from the umpire would generally fuel the fire.
you may have gotten lucky this time.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

The finishing the game aspect was more a before they brawlled, not a get out of a bad game thing. It was 6 runs into that inning, I had no problem with them continuing to play, but wasn't about to have a brawl on my hands. .

How often does this team "brawl"? And what indication did you have that a brawl was about to break out if you didn't fabricate an out?
I most certainly understand your concerns, but I don't think lecturing players and coaches about sportsmanship while you're calling phantom outs is helping the situation.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

In regards to the player, he was the best player on either team, had played for his provincial team for his age group, and to be honest should have known better. I agree I probably shouldn't have said anything, but the coaches (have no supervisor) and know nothing about the game, were doing nothing, and I had a progressivly angry team of 16-17 and 18yr olds on my hands.
This is a bit of a babysitting league. .

IMO umpires are never babysitters.
I never fault kids for playing hard. Maybe this kids family isn't flush with cash and he's fighting for a baseball scholarship. Any chance he has to make his stats look better he's going to take it. Now you just made a big change in his SB/SB ATT %. A booted call is one thing, a made up call is totally different.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

One of the main differences in Canada to the US is the Sheer amount of people involved in the games that have never played or have any real clue as to the game of baseball. So as umpires we have a slight Teaching aspect to our roles when doing those types of games. .

Their still 16-18 yr old young men and deserve to be treated as such.
Does your association condone your self proclaimed job description of umpire/teacher?

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

However, My question also Asked for Suggestions to help me for next time. And sorry allowing a brawl to occur when there is some thing I could do to stop it is still not tops on my list.

You said the losing teams kids were getting progressivly more angry. How do you know? What were the outward manifestations of this anger? Maybe you were just projecting this anger to them since you were getting progressively more angry yourself.
You can't stop someone from being angry, you can only hope to keep them from illegally acting on that anger and you shouldn't do that by appeasing them with bad calls in their favor. Pavlov might say this may encourage their anger.
If any players are acting in an unsportsmanlike manner you should deal with it appropriately, but there is nothing in the rules that prevent a player from being mad, angry, pi$$ed off or upset with the other team.

[3appleshigh]

I get your point, however, the scholarship thing is not even a remote possiblity for this league or area, if he might be up for one, these stats would not appear anywhere, in fact he would not play in this league for fear of losing the scholarship based soley on that. Note in canada there are no Athletic scholarships, so his only hope is to a US school and only the rarest of the rare are even scouted for those.

Anger is not difficult to detect, and the losing school is known for extremely poor behaviour, this was getting close, I was telling players to calm down as well. There have been multiple ejections from these teams over the past three years. In fact in the last few years there would have been problems well before this. These two teams are Much improved behaviourwise this year than in previous years, but things were starting to escalate.

Also the anger was at each other not us as officals, I would gladly take the anger if it was transposed to me, that would be a winning situation. Also the Teaching aspect to our roles is understood and condoned. I have also stated that my lecture; Although that was a strong choice of words on my part; was not correct, even the call is debateable in my mind, and I'm heavily leaning toward wrong there as well. The only thing keeping me from wavering is the lack of other options. This game could have easily gone south in a HUGE hurry, this call change that. It will also help in future games when this team doesn't act the same way again. So some GOOD will come out of the Wrong. I would prefer that to the BAD, but I would much prefer A better solution to achieve the same goals.

I still have not heard anything close to a suggestion for the next time. I can accept it was wrong. But what options can you give me for the future.

[mcrowder]

I think most of us agree with each other that making up calls you know are wrong is POOR game management, and since Game Management is your only reason for doing what you did, I suspect you should not do this in the future.

You're asking for advice, and I think we've given it numerous times. Call the game as you see it. You are the arbiter, not the babysitter. You are the impartial one - keep it that way. And definitely don't tell players what to do - leave that to coaches.

You mentioned that the coaches have no supervisor. Who made them coaches? Surely there is SOMEone that can have the sportsmanship conversation with them, even if it is some sort of league commish. SOMEONE has to be in charge of this mess. THAT'S the person that should be discussing things with the manager.

[RPatrino]

The spectator was some youth ball player who was warming up near the stands down the 3rd baseline. The batter hit a screamer down the 3bl. The spectator came onto the field of play to grab the ball and do the left fielder the 'favor' of helping him.

Rest assured, there were no spectators anywhere on the field of play. The problem is there is no fence down the left field line to keep the peanut gallery out.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I have "stretched" things in a manner like you describe exactly twice. Both similar... the most recent - one team was just KILLING the other and the bad team just couldn't throw strikes at all. 30-something to 2 or 3. The coach, for about 6 batters, was chiding his players if they didn't swing at anything close (meaning head-high and 6 inches outside). After about 6 batters he calls time and comes to me - tells me just to call anything within reach a strike, just to get his kids to swing. And even with "permission", it took me another 4-5 batters before I really did what he asked, and it felt wrong to do it.

I had a similar situation last year - Frosh B game - first my assignor says -frosh B - big strike zone, then when I get to game, coaches kind of reiterate the same saying if not we'll be here until 8:00. It wasn't a blowout game, something like 8-6, but I had one pitch that I called a ball, and the opne coach says -"hey this isn't varsity". The problem is if you expand to meet what they want, they will complain you didn't expand enough or too much

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Are you saying you wait while a dugout person chases down a foul ball that's against the fence down the line?

The post said "spectator", not "dugout person." I don't allow play with a spectator in liveball territory, but that's just me.