Game Management??

[3appleshigh]

You have a complete and utter Blow out of a game. 13-1 going into the 4th inning and we are 6 runs into this inning (now 19-1). H/S kids but POOR quality Baseball all round. Coaches are simply teachers who do this "so the kids can play" and have no clue about rules written or unwritten. The leading team is still Running on passed balls and stealing on regular pitches. As Ump's we are now looking for Strikes and out simply to help everyone end this game. Coaches do nothing to curb the base path manipulation even when reminded by me. (I simply got coaches attention and said, Hey, Remember the score here") This is a league know for Hot head kids due to the ages and relative skill level. On a subsequent play, I have R1 steal on the pitch, F2 throws the ball, Slightly off target, as the SS trys to get to the ball on the 1st base side of 2nd, he collides with the sliding runner. I choose to Call the runner out for Interference (even though it was simply a train wreck) and lecture him about running up the score. Next couple of pitches we have out number three. I talk to the coach as he leaves the field, he agrees with me, says he was embarrassed and Didn't send the runner, he was sorry. Last half inning goes quickly and we have our mercy. Game over.

So Critiques, and Ideas of what to do differently should this arise again. I hate to "enforce" rules somewhat incorrectly, but felt that in this situation things could have gotten out of hand were they not dealt with.

[TussAgee11]

Don't make up rules to advance your cause of ending the game.

I don't even endorse widening the strike zone because what if the team comes back. Granted, its unlikely, but then you have a serious problem if anyone notices that you made it bigger. I may open it up by a ball or so on the outside and maybe half a ball on the inside, but thats IT. That way nobody knows but me.

Don't make up rules.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

The leading team is still Running on passed balls and stealing on regular pitches.

It's not "classy" baseball but it isn't illegal.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

As Ump's we are now looking for Strikes and out simply to help everyone end this game.

What? Maybe you and your partner need to find another hobby.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

Coaches do nothing to curb the base path manipulation even when reminded by me. (I simply got coaches attention and said, Hey, Remember the score here")

Why would you, the umpire, say anything? It's not your place to do so.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

On a subsequent play, I have R1 steal on the pitch, F2 throws the ball, Slightly off target, as the SS trys to get to the ball on the 1st base side of 2nd, he collides with the sliding runner. I choose to Call the runner out for Interference (even though it was simply a train wreck) and lecture him about running up the score.

So you cheated the runner because you wanted to go home? Why would you lecture the runner about running up the score? You'd have a short umpiring career doing that kind of crap around here.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

I talk to the coach as he leaves the field, he agrees with me, says he was embarrassed and Didn't send the runner, he was sorry.

Umpires talking to the coaches telling them how to run their team? You should be telling the coach that you're sorry...but he has probably realized that by now.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

So Critiques, and Ideas of what to do differently should this arise again. I hate to "enforce" rules somewhat incorrectly, but felt that in this situation things could have gotten out of hand were they not dealt with.

Yea, one suggestion....umpire the game by the rules, you can't make up rules as you go along.

[ozzy6900]

1. You and your partner are there to call the game, you have no business telling the coaches how to play the game.
2. If you and your partner are "fabricating" outs or expanding the strike zone, you are both cheating! Something that I and many others do not take too kindly to.
3. If you and your partner do not like these kind of games, don't take them! Not all HS games are played by the "cream of the crop". We sometimes have to deal with sub-sub-sub Varsity ejects - so what? It should not change the way you officiate!

You people with your "touchie-feelie let's all sing cum-bya attitudes do not help the players. You just make a mockery of the entire officiating world!

Now go forth and sin no more!

[Jimology]

3 Apples,

Would you make up rules to extend a good game? Of course not. Can't make up rules shorten bad one either.

[RPatrino]

I had a much worse situation tonight, HS level play, two teams that definitely were inferior. Final score, 37-7. I seriously considered (but did not) widen or alter the zone, even though the pitchers struggled throughout. Winning coach was stealing, taking the extra base, etc. etc.

3apples, I feel your pain!!! However, we are not on the field to provide our opinions on how the coach should be handling their team or their business. Call your game, the same game you would use in a 1-0 game, from the 1st inning to the last.

Oh, and BTW, I actually had a spectator interference call. A kid in foul territory picked up a live ball and handed it to the left fielder...Sheeze.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

A kid in foul territory picked up a live ball and handed it to the left fielder...Sheeze.

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

[ChapJim]

Originally Posted by GarthB

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

All he said was a kid picked up a live ball, not that the kid was in liveball territory when the play started. If all you have is a line, maybe an imaginary one at that, it's pretty easy for a kid to step across and pick up a ball headed his way.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

How on earth did a play get off with a kid in liveball territory?

Are you saying you wait while a dugout person chases down a foul ball that's against the fence down the line?

[mcrowder]

Apples, I think you're going to find it pretty unanimous - just call the game. There are those who will stretch the strikezone a bit (I don't - but some do and I don't fault them for it), but you surely don't want to be "looking for outs" or calling interference when it isn't there.

But to me, the worst thing you did was lecture the kid about running up the score. If there is any sportsmanship talk that needs to occur, it's with a coach, not a player (and in my opinion, it shouldn't come from the umpire, but rather from the coach's supervisor). How do you know the coach didn't put in his backup backup 2B, who bats 4-5 times a season. That kid is trying to show his coach he can steal a base. It is NOT our place to tell kids not to try their hardest in every situation. Shame on the coach ... but never the player.

I have "stretched" things in a manner like you describe exactly twice. Both similar... the most recent - one team was just KILLING the other and the bad team just couldn't throw strikes at all. 30-something to 2 or 3. The coach, for about 6 batters, was chiding his players if they didn't swing at anything close (meaning head-high and 6 inches outside). After about 6 batters he calls time and comes to me - tells me just to call anything within reach a strike, just to get his kids to swing. And even with "permission", it took me another 4-5 batters before I really did what he asked, and it felt wrong to do it.

[3appleshigh]

I don't completely disagree with you guys. In fact 99% of me completely agrees. That is why I posted. However, the problem in this league is hot heads and ejections and fights. The schools involved are notorious for having major issues, I was looking at this as a Game management issue Re Making sure no Fights or bad blood, which was very likely, but tempers cooled after this play. The finishing the game aspect was more a before they brawlled, not a get out of a bad game thing. It was 6 runs into that inning, I had no problem with them continuing to play, but wasn't about to have a brawl on my hands. I argued with myself over that call, but I think in this situation, I probably stopped a bigger uglier incident. I still am not sure that was worth doing what I did.

In regards to the player, he was the best player on either team, had played for his provincial team for his age group, and to be honest should have known better. I agree I probably shouldn't have said anything, but the coaches (have no supervisor) and know nothing about the game, were doing nothing, and I had a progressivly angry team of 16-17 and 18yr olds on my hands.
This is a bit of a babysitting league. Every team has 1-4 players who have actually played before thats about it. Skill level of probably 8-10 yr olds with crazy teenage attitudes.

One of the main differences in Canada to the US is the Sheer amount of people involved in the games that have never played or have any real clue as to the game of baseball. So as umpires we have a slight Teaching aspect to our roles when doing those types of games. We have some real good ball, and in those Games I would not have done any of these things, as the Coaches would deal with it. This game was not one of those. One a side note, the looking for strikes was just as you guys talked about opening the zone a ball or a ball and a half, simply trying to get things going. It actually lead to more hits rather than more outs in this case. But at least the game was moving rather than walk after walk.

However, My question also Asked for Suggestions to help me for next time. And sorry allowing a brawl to occur when there is some thing I could do to stop it is still not tops on my list.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I have "stretched" things in a manner like you describe exactly twice. Both similar... the most recent - one team was just KILLING the other and the bad team just couldn't throw strikes at all. 30-something to 2 or 3. The coach, for about 6 batters, was chiding his players if they didn't swing at anything close (meaning head-high and 6 inches outside). After about 6 batters he calls time and comes to me - tells me just to call anything within reach a strike, just to get his kids to swing. And even with "permission", it took me another 4-5 batters before I really did what he asked, and it felt wrong to do it.

I had a similar situation last year - Frosh B game - first my assignor says -frosh B - big strike zone, then when I get to game, coaches kind of reiterate the same saying if not we'll be here until 8:00. It wasn't a blowout game, something like 8-6, but I had one pitch that I called a ball, and the opne coach says -"hey this isn't varsity". The problem is if you expand to meet what they want, they will complain you didn't expand enough or too much

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Are you saying you wait while a dugout person chases down a foul ball that's against the fence down the line?

The post said "spectator", not "dugout person." I don't allow play with a spectator in liveball territory, but that's just me.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

I don't completely disagree with you guys. In fact 99% of me completely agrees. That is why I posted. However, the problem in this league is hot heads and ejections and fights. The schools involved are notorious for having major issues, I was looking at this as a Game management issue Re Making sure no Fights or bad blood, which was very likely, but tempers cooled after this play. .

I don't think calling a phantom interference and then lecturing one of the few kids that knows it wasn't interference is going to calm the natives.
I think a bad call and a lecture from the umpire would generally fuel the fire.
you may have gotten lucky this time.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

The finishing the game aspect was more a before they brawlled, not a get out of a bad game thing. It was 6 runs into that inning, I had no problem with them continuing to play, but wasn't about to have a brawl on my hands. .

How often does this team "brawl"? And what indication did you have that a brawl was about to break out if you didn't fabricate an out?
I most certainly understand your concerns, but I don't think lecturing players and coaches about sportsmanship while you're calling phantom outs is helping the situation.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

In regards to the player, he was the best player on either team, had played for his provincial team for his age group, and to be honest should have known better. I agree I probably shouldn't have said anything, but the coaches (have no supervisor) and know nothing about the game, were doing nothing, and I had a progressivly angry team of 16-17 and 18yr olds on my hands.
This is a bit of a babysitting league. .

IMO umpires are never babysitters.
I never fault kids for playing hard. Maybe this kids family isn't flush with cash and he's fighting for a baseball scholarship. Any chance he has to make his stats look better he's going to take it. Now you just made a big change in his SB/SB ATT %. A booted call is one thing, a made up call is totally different.

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

One of the main differences in Canada to the US is the Sheer amount of people involved in the games that have never played or have any real clue as to the game of baseball. So as umpires we have a slight Teaching aspect to our roles when doing those types of games. .

Their still 16-18 yr old young men and deserve to be treated as such.
Does your association condone your self proclaimed job description of umpire/teacher?

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

However, My question also Asked for Suggestions to help me for next time. And sorry allowing a brawl to occur when there is some thing I could do to stop it is still not tops on my list.

You said the losing teams kids were getting progressivly more angry. How do you know? What were the outward manifestations of this anger? Maybe you were just projecting this anger to them since you were getting progressively more angry yourself.
You can't stop someone from being angry, you can only hope to keep them from illegally acting on that anger and you shouldn't do that by appeasing them with bad calls in their favor. Pavlov might say this may encourage their anger.
If any players are acting in an unsportsmanlike manner you should deal with it appropriately, but there is nothing in the rules that prevent a player from being mad, angry, pi$$ed off or upset with the other team.

[3appleshigh]

I get your point, however, the scholarship thing is not even a remote possiblity for this league or area, if he might be up for one, these stats would not appear anywhere, in fact he would not play in this league for fear of losing the scholarship based soley on that. Note in canada there are no Athletic scholarships, so his only hope is to a US school and only the rarest of the rare are even scouted for those.

Anger is not difficult to detect, and the losing school is known for extremely poor behaviour, this was getting close, I was telling players to calm down as well. There have been multiple ejections from these teams over the past three years. In fact in the last few years there would have been problems well before this. These two teams are Much improved behaviourwise this year than in previous years, but things were starting to escalate.

Also the anger was at each other not us as officals, I would gladly take the anger if it was transposed to me, that would be a winning situation. Also the Teaching aspect to our roles is understood and condoned. I have also stated that my lecture; Although that was a strong choice of words on my part; was not correct, even the call is debateable in my mind, and I'm heavily leaning toward wrong there as well. The only thing keeping me from wavering is the lack of other options. This game could have easily gone south in a HUGE hurry, this call change that. It will also help in future games when this team doesn't act the same way again. So some GOOD will come out of the Wrong. I would prefer that to the BAD, but I would much prefer A better solution to achieve the same goals.

I still have not heard anything close to a suggestion for the next time. I can accept it was wrong. But what options can you give me for the future.