Unusual occurence in April 28th Baltimore-Cleveland game

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Upon reading the many people who are adamant that MLB should uphold this protest, I wonder if these same people are aware of the three possible outcomes of a protest. Pursuant to MLB's policy, when a protest is filed, it is:

IMO, I think most are adament because the ruling from major league baseball could have an adverse effect on all of us amateurs.

Look at the impact on the overhyped "getting the call right" on a 2 person crew.

I realize major league baseball stands alone but if the protest is NOT upheld get ready for the floodgates and a change in the appeal rules. If the protest is not upheld then in effect major league baseball is saying you can appeal any misapplication of a rule anytime during the game and also retroactively put runs on / off the board.

IMO I do not think most are interested in what major league baseball will ultimately do but that the protest is upheld because you do not have 'all day" to appeal.

Pete Booth

[Durham]

Score one for the good guys.

[BJ]

Originally Posted by David B

Might be without precedent, but as you stated it sounds like they did a "right" thing.

I think they will disallow the protest also because the rules are not very clear either way.

As we know in baseball, there is a first time for everything.

Thanks
DAvid

There is a precedent. About 4 or 5 years ago in AAA, the same thing happened. Plate umpire had a brain fart, but the crew didn't get together. An inning later, the first base umpire came down to talk with the plate umpire to ask about the play because he thought it was rather odd that R3 didn't beat the throw. The plate umpire said that he did (by about 2 steps), but it was a force out at 1st for the 3rd out so the run doesn't count. The 3 umpires got together and said that they kicked that call, and the run should have counted. Then, they put the run on the board. Of course, the defensive team for the play in question immediately protested the game.

End result - the protest was denied.

BJ

[jkumpire]

As I was coming home from my game tonight, I happend to turn on the Indians game. The broadcast crew reported that the protest was disallowed. No reason was given.

Mike Heagen, Color guy: "I don't know what sense it makes to even protest games any more, because if there was ever a case for a protest to be upheld, this was was it."

Tom Hamilton, Play-by-play: "Of course the Indians think this is a terrible decision, but will not say anything in public because they will only get in more trouble..."

It seems very obvious that the suits in NY wanted to shovel this thing under the rug, and the political way was to disallow the protest. Saves the umps from any bad pub, and since Batlimore won the game, who cares anyway right? Only us guys who care about the game being played right

By the way, rules mavens, the MLB office used 9.01c to justify the ruling, here the press release from the Indians site:

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/new...=.jsp&c_id=cle

CLEVELAND -- Indians general manager Mark Shapiro understands the Commissioner's Office had a tough decision to make regarding Saturday's protested game against the Orioles.

Ultimately, however, Shapiro and the rest of the Indians feel the league made the wrong decision.

"I still feel," Shapiro said, "we have a strong, solid, well-presented case."

It's a case Major League Baseball rejected Wednesday afternoon. MLB president and chief operating officer Bob DuPuy denied the Tribe's protest from that game, and the Orioles' bizarre, 7-4 victory over the Indians was upheld.

The Indians had protested the umpiring crew's ability to add a run to the scoreboard three innings after it crossed the plate. But a little-known clause in the rule book apparently gives the umpire's that power.

In a memo from the league office explaining DuPuy's decision, Rule 9.01(c) is cited.

"The Official Baseball Rules do not address when the umpires can make such a correction in those circumstances," the memo read. "When the rules do not address a situation, Official Baseball Rule 9.01(c) gives them the discretion to rule on any point not otherwise covered by the Rules."

Shapiro jokingly referred to the rule as an "escape hatch."

Here's how the umpires found themselves using that hatch Saturday night:

In the bottom of the sixth inning, with the score tied at 2, crew chief Ed Montague instructed the official scorer to add a run to the Orioles' tally, making it 3-2.

The run had come in the top of the third inning. The Orioles were up, 2-1, with one out and runners on the corners. Ramon Hernandez hit a line drive to center field that was caught by Grady Sizemore, who then threw to first base, doubling up Miguel Tejada. But while Sizemore lobbed the ball to first, Nick Markakis tagged up at third and scored before Tejada was ruled out. Thus, Markakis' run should have counted, but it was waved off by home-plate umpire Marvin Hudson.

Baltimore didn't argue the call until after the third, when bench coach Tom Trebelhorn talked it over with Montague. The rule book was summoned, and the umpires had several conversations with both dugouts before Montague finally ruled the run should be tacked on in the sixth.

Indians manager Eric Wedge immediately told Montague the Indians would play the remainder of the game in protest. The Indians took a 4-3 lead on Jhonny Peralta's two-run homer in the sixth, but they eventually lost the game, 7-4.

Once an official protest was filed Sunday, the Indians were hoping MLB would accept it and have the game replayed this weekend in Baltimore -- either from the third inning, with the run intact, or the sixth inning, with the run nullified.

Instead, the game stands as a Cleveland loss.

Wedge opted not to offer much comment on the league's ruling, saying only, "Obviously, I disagree with their decision."

Shapiro, meanwhile, said he's concerned about the precedent the decision might create.

"It was going to be problematic, either way they ruled," he said.

As part of the protest, the Indians' front office sent video evidence and documentation to the league office. Shapiro also placed a call to Joe Garagiola Jr., MLB's senior vice president of baseball operations, on Wednesday morning to ensure the league didn't need anything else from the club.

"There's no way to appeal this any further," Shapiro said. "It's time to put it to bed."

That being said, with this strange scenario in the back of his mind, Shapiro said he hopes the little-known rule is a topic of discussion at November's GM Meetings.

"We'll put it on the agenda this year," he said.

Wow, I hope it is on the agenda. What a bunch of garbage. The thinking is:

1. PU srews it up.
2. 3 innings later, crew realizes he/they screwed it up
3. Crew decides to change a fundamental of rules and umpiring to correct the mistake.
4. League office refuses to take a stand, so they bail on the decision, since:
5. Umpires under 9.01c can do anything they want to cover their rear ends since noone has screwed up this play before and there is no rulebook coverage for dealing with such a screwup.

This is an embarassment. I've umpired a lot of baseball games over the years, and I have some calls I wish I could take back, but I had the guts to own my own controversial calls, even if get them wrong. But now I find I can go hit the big 'ole Reset Button anytime I want in pro rules and make things "right". what, we get to go to a Star Trek Holodeck and replay everything to get our claas right now?

Dollars to donuts sometime this season someone on this board will post a sit about a crew who was convinced in a game to add runs later, or go back to a play where rule was missapplied, or someone had second thoughts about the call. And then there wil be the mechanics of doing it post, then the "how to score it" post.

I guarantee you I will get asked in sumer ball to overrule or change a call based on this play.

As you can tell, I am upset about this.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

3. Crew decides to change a fundamental of rules and umpiring ...

Which is?

[jkumpire]

Here we go:

1. Yes, the rules are unwritten, but: Own your own call. PU made the call, stick with it. If you are wrong, life's is tough when your mistake is shown on ESPN, I'll trade with him any day.
2. Once a play it happens it is over, you can't go back and change it later.
3. Appeals can be made on some rule violations until the next pitch or play not at the end of a half ining, and not three innings later.
4. Judgement calls are not appealable (normally), and rule mistakes have to be appealed when the happen, not later.

Garth, I see your point, I believe. I think you are saying that the crew used 9.01c to change the score when they decided the PU made an error, whether it was a judgement call or rule that he blew in making the incorrect call. And the time doesn't matter, they can change things any time they want to

My view is that if he made a bad judgement call, the PU has to live with it, you can't go back and change the whole game situation three innings after the call was made. You are opening up Pandora's Box for questioning calls.
If the PU blew a rule the offense has to come out then and appeal or protest the game when the call was blown.

In my view of the rules, the umpire does not have the ability under the rules to hit a reset button and and play god to cover up a mistake. You have to eat the call in this case.

The MLB suits don't agree, their mistake.

[SAump]

Please consider that correcting a misapplication to one rule 3 innings later (1 week ago), really means a 1/2 inning later (today), and may eventually turn out to mean at the appropriate time (in another 2 weeks).

Of course, if it happens again, we now have a precedent set for correcting any misapplication of the rules for an indefinite time period following the game.

[jkumpire]

Night means day, up means down, left means right, one plsu one is three. Deconstructionists love it!

[Durham]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Here we go:

1. Yes, the rules are unwritten, but: Own your own call. PU made the call, stick with it. If you are wrong, life's is tough when your mistake is shown on ESPN, I'll trade with him any day.
2. Once a play it happens it is over, you can't go back and change it later.
3. Appeals can be made on some rule violations until the next pitch or play not at the end of a half ining, and not three innings later.
4. Judgement calls are not appealable (normally), and rule mistakes have to be appealed when the happen, not later.

Garth, I see your point, I believe. I think you are saying that the crew used 9.01c to change the score when they decided the PU made an error, whether it was a judgement call or rule that he blew in making the incorrect call. And the time doesn't matter, they can change things any time they want to

My view is that if he made a bad judgement call, the PU has to live with it, you can't go back and change the whole game situation three innings after the call was made. You are opening up Pandora's Box for questioning calls.
If the PU blew a rule the offense has to come out then and appeal or protest the game when the call was blown.

In my view of the rules, the umpire does not have the ability under the rules to hit a reset button and and play god to cover up a mistake. You have to eat the call in this case.

The MLB suits don't agree, their mistake.

#3) Who made an appeal? No one, so under the rule book the next play/pitch reasoning doesn't apply here. But we have been asked to work to get it right.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Here we go:

1. Yes, the rules are unwritten, but: Own your own call. PU made the call, stick with it. If you are wrong, life's is tough when your mistake is shown on ESPN, I'll trade with him any day.
2. Once a play it happens it is over, you can't go back and change it later.
3. Appeals can be made on some rule violations until the next pitch or play not at the end of a half ining, and not three innings later.
4. Judgement calls are not appealable (normally), and rule mistakes have to be appealed when the happen, not later.

Garth, I see your point, I believe. I think you are saying that the crew used 9.01c to change the score when they decided the PU made an error, whether it was a judgement call or rule that he blew in making the incorrect call. And the time doesn't matter, they can change things any time they want to

My view is that if he made a bad judgement call, the PU has to live with it, you can't go back and change the whole game situation three innings after the call was made. You are opening up Pandora's Box for questioning calls.
If the PU blew a rule the offense has to come out then and appeal or protest the game when the call was blown.

In my view of the rules, the umpire does not have the ability under the rules to hit a reset button and and play god to cover up a mistake. You have to eat the call in this case.

The MLB suits don't agree, their mistake.

The rules regarding the timing of an appeal applies to the "offended" team, not umpires.

9.01 (c) is, indeed, the God Clause.

The action they took further convinces me that the issue was not a judgment call. That they would have left alone. This was, no doubt, a misapplication of the rules, and whether we like it or not, the die was cast for this use of 9.01(c) two years ago when MLB began encouraging the umpires to huddle, hold hands, sing and "get it right."

I am not any more in favor of this approach to umpiring than you, however, I have seen enough of it at the MiLB and MLB levels to understand that I am powerless to stop this perverted concept of progress.

I also have matured in age and attitude to the point that I won't get heartburn over it.

Bottom line, there was no rule to prevent them from doing what they wanted to do, and the God Clause was there to allow them to do what they wanted to do, so they did it. Those of us who disagree have no real footing for that stand other than emotional ties to the past.

And so it goes.

(RIP Kurt)

[PeteBooth]

How is this - score one for the good guys.

I would like to see what would have happened in the 7th game of the World Series - Game Tied after 9 complete innings, all of a sudden the umpires 'go back" and put a run on the Board = game Over.

What happened here is what happens many times in Corporate America. It's called CYA.


Pete Booth

[Durham]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

How is this - score one for the good guys.

I would like to see what would have happened in the 7th game of the World Series - Game Tied after 9 complete innings, all of a sudden the umpires 'go back" and put a run on the Board = game Over.

What happened here is what happens many times in Corporate America. It's called CYA.


Pete Booth

Pete,

Just one question! Did the runner cross the plate before the out at 1st?

If no, they screwed up.

If yes, they got it right.

Is it that hard?

Opps, that is two questions.

[waltjp]

The umps kicked this one - twice. The first mistake was not knowing the rule - inexcusable for anyone calling any game above t-ball level. The second mistake was adding the run. The misapplication of the rule occurred in the top of the third inning when Baltimore's run was disallowed. (I don't think anyone is claiming this was a judgment call.) Baltimore should have protested at that point. They didn't.

Now, after thinking it over the umps decide that they kicked it and want to correct it. Basically they decided, 'we screwed up but Baltimore didn't catch it so let's fix if for them.' Bad decision. And bad ruling by MLB.

[lawump]

The only thing that could be worse than what this umpiring crew did, in my not-so-humble opinion, was if a crew decided after a play to change a "foul" call to "fair". Thank God that's never happened. Oh, wait....

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Durham

Pete,

Just one question! Did the runner cross the plate before the out at 1st?

If no, they screwed up.

If yes, they got it right.

Is it that hard?

Opps, that is two questions.

Two mistakes doesn't make one right call. Yes, they kicked when the run was waived off. They had until the next pitch to correct it and they didn't, neither did Baltimore challenge the incorrect application of the rules. Three innings later, the umpires decided to take it upon themselves to protest their mistake and correct it. This is an error because the time for correcting the error had passed. This is, quite literally, a make-up call.

Screwing up once does not give you license to intentionally screw up again because you think the second one makes up for the first.