Strike Pitch - Do you still call it?

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

I understand your perspectives, but I am really troubled by the idea of calling a STRIKE a ball to "speed the game up"

Nobody is saying we are doing what has been talked about to Speed Up the game. We are talking about an umpires Credibility, in the way they call pitches.

When I was instructed to take up the pitch calling techniques being talked about, I spent many nights tossing and turning about it. But I had a lot of respect for the umpire that pulled me aside, so decided to try it. Lowe and behold, it actually felt better.

Yes, we are there to uphold the rules of the game, to call what we see, and to be impartial. Be we are also expected to do what is expected of us. I would rather argue a call to the 2% who expect a strike called on pitch that 'actually' was a strike, than to the 98% who saw a ball.

How many times have you seen a runner called out on a tag play because the ball got there way before the runner, even though the runner may have the base just before they are tagged (usually a high tag) ? Same thing. The 'expected' call, is the call to make.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

The catcher is, no matter what the rulebook says, a part of what makes the pitch a strike.

I don't agree with Rich very often; he's management, I was always labor. But....

Rich Garcia's comment describing the strike zone is one of umpiring's classic statements: "A strike is where I call it and they don't b!tch!" Paste that on the back of your catcher's helmet, follow it religiously, and watch your evaluations climb.

There is this romantic, some might say sophomoric, view that umpiring is an exact science, that a "strike is a strike is a strike," as if there is some magical box that determines the outcome of the pitch.

Not to put too fine a point on it, that's hogwash!

I am amazed when I hear a so-called "umpire" say something like: "Hey, if it's a strike, I don't care whether the catcher sticks it or where he catches it."

Fellows, it ain't a strike until the catcher sticks it.

In south Texas, we play pretty good baseball. Hey, we ain't bad in soccer either: Brownsville Porter just won the state championship, 2-1, in double overtime. Down here, if I called a strike a strike just because the pitch hit the published strike zone, at any level above 10u, I would work games only when no one else was available. From Bronco through MSBL, including Division 1, the pitch must look as if it was a strike.

My candidate umpires always come back and rave about a principle I teach: "If the catcher's mitt touches the ground, the pitch ain't a strike."

Earlier this year, I called a 5A game between a sometime powerhouse and a periennial power. The coach of the once-in-a-while winner stopped by in the third inning to complain: "Hey, how come we're not getting that pitch at the knees?"

Said I: "Because Tony's catcher is a lot better than yours."

Said he: "Ain't that the truth." He gave me a pat on the butt and went on his way. Oh, he was the coach at Brownsville Porter. He won't win the state championship this year.

Most of us are working amateur ball. We know the limits of our pitchers and catchers. If we have had any meaningful experience at all, we know what we can call without being killed by both sides. I can tell you this: The coach whose pitcher is getting strikes in the dirt simply because they were strikes at some point during the pitch is nervous as hell and praying that you won't be consistent with that "zone" when his team comes to bat. In other words, he hopes you're an all-around bad ump.

I was pleased with this thread: Most of the posters recognized that there is no magical zone, that it takes two (a pitcher and a catcher) to create a strike. Ten years ago, Rich and I might have been alone.

We've come a long way, Baby.

[LakeErieUmp]

I'd like to be a fly on the screen when the coach comes out to politely ask where that pitch was and you tell him "your batter hasn't earned the right to be a connoisseur"

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

I'd like to be a fly on the screen when the coach comes out to politely ask where that pitch was and you tell him "your batter hasn't earned the right to be a connoisseur"

I don't understand. If a coach wants to know where a pitch was - in relation to his batter - I would simply say: "Where was the pitch? In the strike zone."

No need to get clever, right?

In over 50 years, I don't recollect a coach ever asking me why a pitch was a strike. He might say: "Those low pitches aren't strikes!" Or: "C'mon, Carl: My batter couldn't hit those pitches with a 50-inch bat."

Offensive coaches ask only about a pitch they thought was a strike but I called a ball. "Where was that pitch [at]?" A well-trained catcher (training courtesy of me) motions "outside," even if he thought it was a stike and I missed it. There's always another pitch right around the corner.

On the other hand, a professional coach who questions the calls his pitcher is [not] getting understands at once when I tell him his catcher is costing the pitcher strikes.

That's a given, anywhere real baseball is played.

I guess it's a matter of style. I prefer telling the truth to coaches who are courteous enough to ask.

What's your position on that?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

I don't agree with Rich very often; he's management, I was always labor. But....

Rich Garcia's comment describing the strike zone is one of umpiring's classic statements: "A strike is where I call it and they don't b!tch!" Paste that on the back of your catcher's helmet, follow it religiously, and watch your evaluations climb.

...SNIP...

I was pleased with this thread: Most of the posters recognized that there is no magical zone, that it takes two (a pitcher and a catcher) to create a strike. Ten years ago, Rich and I might have been alone.

We've come a long way, Baby.

Management? Heck, I'm a grunt. I've never managed anyone.

I've only worked 9 games so far this season. Because of a foul ball to a plate shoe that bent the plate (new ones arrived late Friday afternoon), I spent the last week working the bases in single games, so I got to watch a lot of strike zones. 7 college games, 2 HS games so far. The observations are mine alone, but certainly apply to when I work the plate, too. I have worked 2 college plates this year and so far, so good.

(1) Most college pitchers can throw darts at the hollow of the knee. You'd better be prepared to call that a strike when the catcher sticks it. It's the bread and butter pitch and missing that was the biggest cause of *****ing I saw this past week. Timing, timing, timing.

(2) Catchers know when they cost their pitchers strikes. I had a catcher flub a borderline curve ball and I called it a ball. The coach yelled -- at the catcher. The pitcher glared -- at the catcher. The catcher apologized to both.

(3) Pitchers, to a degree, need to hit their spots. I had a catcher set up 3 inches outside on an 0-2 count and the pitch made the catcher dive back over the inside corner to catch the ball. I'm lucky I didn't get drilled. If I call that a strike, I may as well sign up for nothing but freshman and JV HS games (Carl's area is more competitive for umpires as no matter how bad I am, I'd never be relegated to 10u, although the MILF ratio is higher in those games).

(4) Use the strike zone. I've started calling the top of the strike zone as written and nobody has said a word. If they do in a college game, I'll say, "That's what the NCAA wants." In a HS game, I don't have to worry as they're just happy for consistency.

My new Spot-Bilt High Tops are here and I'm ready for my DH tonight. Time to quit stealing (although since my partners last week were all regular partners, I will make it up to them at some point this year).

[Justme]

So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

Agree []
Disagree []


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

Agree []
Disagree []

[LMan]

This is level-dependent, but generally

1. agree, if you mean that F1 'stuck' F2's glove right where he held it.
2. agree
3. agree, depending on how much 'lurch' F2 had to do and how much corner it caught
4. how far inside/outside? 'slightly?'

[RPatrino]

[QUOTE=Justme]So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

What does chest high mean? If the pitch is a curve ball and it's caught at strike level, which I presume is somewhere around the knees, then possibly the curve never hit the zone in the first place. This is one of those "had to be there" situations and is very hard to answer. A curve that starts very high and ends up caught in the zone is not a strike.


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

I would not call this a strike, you would start a chirp fest. Your credibility and game management would sink faster than submarine with a screen door.


3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Where did the F2 initially set up?


4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

The inside corner is easy to call, if you are lined up with your nose on the inside corner and you aren't flinching or bailing out. If the ball would have hit you in the nose, then its a strike. Outside is a different story, you don't really have a physical reference. So, if the pitch looks like a strike, and the catcher catches it like a strike, I have a strike.

Bob P.

[nickrego]

1. Agree; If the catcher catches it in the bottom half of the zone (or at least below his chin). Otherwise, a chest high (out of the zone) curve is not going to look like a strike.

2. Agree

3. Agree

4. Agree; 1/2 ball inside, 1 ball outside

[Justme]

[QUOTE=RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Justme

What does chest high mean? If the pitch is a curve ball and it's caught at strike level, which I presume is somewhere around the knees, then possibly the curve never hit the zone in the first place. This is one of those "had to be there" situations and is very hard to answer. A curve that starts very high and ends up caught in the zone is not a strike.

Ball crosses the plate high but ends up in F2's mitt about abdomen level. Looks like a strike where it's caught

[QUOTE=RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Justme

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Where did the F2 initially set up?

F2 (LH) sets up pretty much center of plate and has to reach across his chest & outside his right shoulder to make the catch.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

The catcher is, no matter what the rulebook says, a part of what makes the pitch a strike.

Sets up outside and dives back across the inside corner? Probably a ball, too, unless I need a strike in that situation.

Rich you are exactly correct. Its easy to tell the difference between the varsity umpire and the non-varsity in the way they handle these type of pitches.

Now for kids (LL etc., ) call a strike whenever you can get one and be glad for it, but for our first year umpire asking the question, I'm assuming he's talking about HS or up baseball.

If the catcher is dropping to block a pitch, there's no way its going to be a strike even if its a 12-6 hook which few players know how to throw anymore.

If F2 sets up outside and dives inside, you will never get any grief from a coach or fan if you call it a ball. Its its right down the middle and he reaches you might get away with it.

Generally on a questionable call that hits the dirt or F2 reaches for it, the coach will tell the catcher, "if you catch it right its a strike"

If the coach don't know the difference then you know what type of baseball you are dealing with.

Thanks
David

[David B]

Originally Posted by Justme

So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

Agree []
Disagree []


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

Agree []
Disagree []

I don't think its that simple, the key is to be consistent. The thing most coaches forget is that the zone changes for each batter.

Especially in HS, one guy is 5'3" and the next is 6'5".

1) As far as the curve you talked in #1 it depends to me where the hands are. I make the pitch cross below the hands. I've been trying to work on calling a higher zone and its hard since for years I have just not called the high strike.

2) If F2 drops the ball its not going to be a strike very often. If its a nice 12-6 curve ball and F2 catches it its a strike. The little slider probably not a strike.

3) That's a ball - and coaches won't say a word.

4) Depends on where he set up. If its a little off the plate strike. If he's a lot off the plate ball. (Coach will usually ask f2 was that outside etc., and F2 will agree)

Thanks
David

[Clint Lawson]

I think it has a lot do with the level of baseball. At the college and pro level if you call that pitch a strike your better not be playing in an old wooden ball park. If you are you better call the fire department cause you are going to burn it down. High school i would not call a strike if the glove touches the ground. But I would work with the catcher that can't stick the pitch on the corners.

Clint Lawson
Carolina League
[email protected]

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Offensive coaches ask only about a pitch they thought was a strike but I called a ball. "Where was that pitch [at]?" A well-trained catcher (training courtesy of me) motions "outside," even if he thought it was a stike and I missed it. There's always another pitch right around the corner.

Carl, you need to hire me as your proof-reader. Defensive coaches will ask, not the offensive coaches.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Justme

So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

Agree []
Disagree []


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

Agree []
Disagree []

1. Curves balls don't drop as much as some think in the 2-3 feet from the plate to the catcher's mitt. If the catcher sticks it smack dab in the middle of the strike zone, it was at least a high strike when it crossed the plate. STRIKE.
2. Catcher leans over to catch one, or catches palm up, or looks the least been clumsey catching a low one. BALL.
3. BALL
4. I can't relate to pitches caught by LH catchers. I don't know what I would do. I would probably have my worst night unless the pitcher was real good.

Number 5 you didn't mention:

Fastball comes screaming in at the hollow beneath the knee, and catcher sticks it solid (a must), you can take that pitch if you want, but I will call it every time. I just love that pitch.