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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 08:58am
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"Say what you want about the guys in rookie ball who are 18-19, they're still superior umpires to those not "in the game.""
This is getting pretty funny. A 19 year old kid, who may never have worked a game, is better than a D1 guy, after only 5 weeks of school and a couple of weeks of PBUC - - - man I didn't know umpiring was that easy. Side Note: In our area of the United States MiLB umpires would not be able to work varsity high school games or draw a college schedule until at least 2007. All fees are set prior to the seasons by contract and at both the high school and college level the "certified associations" are the only ones that can work games. There can not be a "lower priced" competitor. Side Note #2: Our assigning commissioner would gladly take "give back games" for umpires to have a chance to work professional games. But more likely the assigner will assign these games to our normal membership. Side Note #3: Mr Byron has projected exactly what could happen to this end of the professional baseball "business" . . . I tried to make this thought earlier that not unlike NAFTA, the outsourcing of this resource could save MiLB LOTS OF MONEY. Side Note #4: In closing MiLB will endure this issue. It will be interesting to see where the final accepted offer finalizes. But what some fail to understand is that "owners" have the power in MiLB and they will do what is necessary, and live with those outcomes, to increase the value of the asset. That's business. 
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 09:06am
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no tim
It's not "that easy" and while that 19 yo may not be able to call a better game - you forget the most important part - he's far more moldable, coachable and has far more potential.
Nobody is saying MiLB is going to fold over this. But the games would be a joke. As someone who annually watches things like the LLWS and the CWS - those umpires could work in A-ball night in and night out. A few games? A week? Sure. But not with their level of consistency. You'd be surprised. And MiLB umps could work HS games this year. Absolutely. At the same set contracted fee. Many I know keep up their HS and College memberships for fall ball and such. They'd just get first dibs. Your games. Last edited by dontcallmeblue; Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 11:13am.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 09:44am
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Ah,
"And MiLB umps could work HS games this year. Absolutely. At the same set contracted fee. Many I know keep up their HS and College memberships for fall ball and such. They'd just get first dibs. Your games."
Maybe in some areas. I identified quite clearly that they couldn't in "my area." We have no MiLB umpires in either our high school or college groups. If we did they would get the same game schedule as all of us that have worked if we were "new" . . . many associations have "transfer rules" that require ANY umpire to work one year of JV games no matter who they are. In Wisconsin, a state where umpires build their own schedules, most schools have signed contracts with umpires for games that won't be player until 2009! In my group I would welcome any top level umpire. We are losing membership every year and we seem to get hurt at the top most often. The model may one day more closely follow the system of the NFL where they hand select certain college (and in a very few cases high school officials) and train them in preseason. For me this has been an interesting thread as I have tried to not become emotional on either side of the issue and just give a view of how business actually functions.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 10:07am
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I don't know where you got 300% from? That seems like a rumor to me...one that really has no merit. From what I know, MiLB umpires have actually had a pay decrease in the past 10 years. They have had NO RAISES, no COL increases, NOTHING! So...if you want to combat that...and get them back to where they were 10 years ago...a "significant pay increase" would be needed. The guys that i've talked to have said they aren't asking for much. The contract that the guys rejected had a $100/month increase in pay. A $1 a day increase in per/diem (which would still leave it about half the government rate...and for those of you that say a lawn care person doesn't get a per diem, so why should these guys...last time I checked these guys NEVER GET TO GO HOME...they are on the road for 5 months. That's the reason there is a per diem in the first place...so why in the world isn't it up to par with the government standard?)
This contract that they rejected also " include raising the deductible from $100 to $500 and increasing the copay" which would wipe out that pay increase. So of course they are going to reject it. EVERY guy i've talked to said all the MiLB umpires are asking for is a pay increase to get wages back to livable. Nobody has told me they are looking for 300%. If you look at the COL increase/year it's at about 2-3% per year for the past 10 years. So over 10 years that would be an increase of about 25% or so. And that isn't really a raise...that's just keeping with the times. If MiLB comes out with an offer that reflects this...and the MiLB umpires reject it...then I will probably start to change my mind. These guys don't need a 300% raise...and none of them I have talked to have expressed that. They do NEED a raise that will combat the cost of living increase going on. THAT IS A REALITY IN AMERICA! Things are getting more expensive, so you have to pay your employees more. You can't just ignore that as an employer. I can't disagree with a union when they are just asking for livable wages. This union is not on a power trip. They aren't turning their back on fair contracts. It seems to me they are just trying to survive. These guys are "professional" umpires. This is their job. They should be making at least enough money to take care of their families.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 01:17pm
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two roads diverged...
Some of you are missing the point.
Pro ball is a capitalist enterprise. The objective is to maximize profits. The owners do that by maximizing revenue and minimizing cost. Labor - players, staff, groundskeepers, umpires, etc. - is a cost to be minimized. The owners will pay them all the minimum required to keep revenue up. The fact is that, given what MiLB now pays umpires, there are plenty of people who are willing to do the job. From a capitalist perspective, then, there is NO REASON to pay them more. The product (pro ball) will NOT suffer greatly from less qualified umpires working the games. And, if I'm wrong about that, and revenues start to drop, then the owners will realize that they made a mistake and will start to pay more for quality umpires. But it's easy to overestimate our importance to the game of baseball. Is the status quo a living wage? No. I don't know anyone who thinks it's decent or fair or livable. But in a genuinely free market there is NO SUCH THING as an unfair price: if I voluntarily and with full information accept the price (for my labor, or my product or whatever), then it is fair. And the MiLB umps have been accepting it for 10 years and more. Of course, we don't live in a perfectly free market (which is a good thing). And the owners might have other reasons for wanting to please the umpires (though I doubt it). And, finally many people will find what I'm saying to be disturbing - that the concept of "price gouging" or "unfair price" is incoherent in free-market economics. Isn't capitalism supposed to be good? Let's not be naive: the MiLB umps have little leverage, and a strike would likely spell the end of the current apprentice system.
__________________
Cheers, mb
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 01:49pm
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Quote:
I guess the only way to find out if MiLB can survive or not without them is to wait, watch, and see. A lot of it depends on us. If we decide to work or not. Most of the guys that I work with have already told me they can not bring themselves to scab if the MiLB guys walk out. I feel the same way. I'm not going to help MiLB screw over these guys. Why would I help MiLB? I am an UMPIRE!!! Shouldn't I be siding with other umpires? The only thing I'd be gaining by working as a fill in would be personal gain. But I would actually be taking a pay cut to work the games...I WOULDN'T be workign with another professional umpire (which is one of the big reasons why i'd like to 'fill in' during a regular season when the MiLB guys ARE working), and I also wouldn't be working a game that I EARNED. I'd just be taking advantage of the situation. Had I choose to go to umpire school when I was younger, and had I made it out of there and gone to professional umpiring, there is no doubt that that would have been the best feeling in the world. I could go work as a scab for these guys, and fool myself into thinking that I earned it, and that it's the same, but I'd just be lying to myself. I wouldn't have that feeling like I would if I were REALLY a professional umpire. I can not in my right mind go work a game, when I know that me working the game is keeping some 25 year old out of it, somebody who really deserves it, and just wants to work and be able to support himself and his family. All I'd be doing by working is helping MiLB keep the umpires down, and hurting umpiring as a whole by showing people that umpires are just pawns...and that we aren't worth much.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 02:57pm
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Quote:
KB
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 03:52pm
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I don't know why we are even talking about D1 guys anyway. Pretty much all the D1 assignors have already come out and said that they won't let their guys turn back games or cancel dates to take minor league games. If the MiLB guys go on strike, it isn't going to be the D1 guys working the games.
I know I sure wouldn't chance turning back any of my D1 or D3 games to do a MiLB games. My D3 assignors will let me turn back games to get a D1 game...but even though some of them haven't addressed it, two of them already have said that if any of us try to give back games to do MiLB games, then we won't ever work for them again. They want us to get the experience, but not like this. I know that all my assignors would let me turn back a game to do a MiLB game under normal circumstances. That would be a good experience, to work with a pro umpire. But to work as a scab. Not good. Just got an email from Rich Fetchiet outlying the same thing. Obviously the NCAA can't choose a side, but they can keep you from turning back games to work MiLB games.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 04:00pm
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Hehehehe,
"Yes. It is getting funny. I went to umpire school twice. After my second year and going to a local clinic to prove my skills, I was given a 25 game D-1 schedule at age 20 or 21 not sure. I was only 2 years out of high school and knew a lot of the kids playing at the local schools. So if you are saying that a rookie umpire cannot umpire D-1 baseball that is the joke. They can do it as good or better than some of the D-1 umpire out there."
--------------------------------------------------- I told you it was getting funny.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 06:00pm
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I admit, TAC, that I am laughing right along with you. Having actually been assigned out of professional school, albeit a very long time ago, I have an insight that these guys simply don't. I know the grind and what it takes to survive. After extra innings and no time to waste, my partner and I drove all night and slept in the car. We lived of our savings and families. We inhaled ball park food and lived to iron shirts (yes, we had to do that then) and polish shoes. Our facilities were spartan and we were usually treated like a commodity. Umpires are just that - a relaceable, disposable commodity.
The guy who said that he can't relate to the apprenticeship analogy, then substantiates it by saying that an apprentice knows if he proves himself he will some day get the brass ring! That sounds an awful lot like MiLB umpires. Sure the percentages are the same, but they are paid to develop their craft and fine tune their skills - just like an apprentice! Plenty of independent MiLB programs use the services of local umpires and the complaints are the same as with the contracted guys. I almost pissed myself when another guy said that with those MiLB guys out of work, his assignor would happily give them games. Great, I hope he gives them yours. While it is true (and I said as much three months ago when we first talked about this) that most NCAA umpires have their schedules and won't be available for much of the MiLB schedule, you would be wrong to think they won't take them on their days off. I know more D1 guys than I care to and with most MiLB games being played on weeknights, they are often free to do them. You go from a three man single or double header to a single under the lights - that's a normal rotation. No one gets stuck with multiple dishes and you take home some extra cash. At the same time, you are polishing your skills. For some crews, they would actually be working better baseball on the college field! Yet another member raises the issue of not being capable of umpiring that level of ball. Stop the nonsense already - yes, the players are quicker, more deceptive and more skilled. But, coaches and players argue any call that goes against them, no matter the level. No one has said that any high school umpire can step in and crew a AAA game. But, some guys can - you said it yourself. Those Rookie ball guys can and do work high school during the off season. The coaches still scream at them for blown calls. Yes, MiLB and D1 umpires blow calls! You can't strike if you don't have a contract, but I digress. If they decide to stay away without a contract then they are opening Pandora's box. Their dream will end because they will be blackballed. Look how MLB treats some of their veterans who walked out. Give me a break about MiLB drying up and going away. Most people don't go to the park to watch the umpires. The new umpires will have a steep learning curve but will rise to the occassion. Water seeks its own level. The powers that be will proclaim that all is well and even the normal crews make mistakes. The MiLB will go from a small paycheck to welfare. Their dreams will be gone and some local assignor will give them your games. That sounds like someone that needs my sympathy. Artists, musicians and craftsmen often spend years toiling in poverty. They pray that their skills will lead them to the promised land. Why should the MiLB umpire be treated any differently? We all agree they should earn more, but so should most of working America. We all want more for our games, but if I walk away from my schedule, I can't cry when the assignor puts someone I consider less talented on the field. That's life, we all wish we had asked Miss America to the prom.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 06:10pm
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Minor league umpires deserve more. In 1967 Cesar Chavez and the United Fruit Workers fought for a living wage for migrant farmers. If they had left it up to supply and demand, the migrants would still be making substandard wages. But they deserved a better wage. So do the umpires.
If MiLB goes simply by supply and demand, the umpires will not have a living wage. If the umpires had received reasonable cost of living increases in salary and per diem over the last 10 years, there wouldn't be a threatened job action. If they made a decent living and just wanted a bigger piece of the owners' pie, I might be tempted to fill in for them if asked. But since they are fighting for something so basic and necessary, I wouldn't even think about it. Mike
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 06:18pm
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If you want to keep using the apprenticship analogy then you need to understand that apprenticeship wages are based on Journeyman scale by percentage. So this would then beg the question what percentage of MLB wages do the MiLB umpires make?
Tim.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 07:23pm
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Actually, BU56, I don't. Most MiLB umpires don't make less than the $15,000 that a couple of members have lied about. Those are 5 month seasons, boys. Put two of them together and add some instructional or Winter League to it and you are making what many college grads make. I know many of them would love to have $36,000 salaries, their lodging paid for and medical benefits. In fact, for a long time, I lived on far less than $20 a day for meals.
I just read a great comment from Derek Crabill on MiLB.org. He says that MiLB umpires could probably concentrate more on the game if they didn't have to worry about the money. OMG, could you be any less arrogant? Your job IS too concentrate and get the calls right. You get paid to do it and if you don't like the pay, go back to doing baseball in the far northwest Chicago suburbs. They've been offered a modest increase in salaries and want the right to have more increases each of the next four years. How many of you are guaranteed annual salary increases? Most of America is non-union and happily accepts the paycheck for the work they do. He implies that they can't focus because they are too worried about paying the bills. Okay, DC77, time to step aside and let others do the job. I used to think you were a gifted umpire, now I think you are gifted umpire who is clearly incapable of political correctness. I never mentioned your assignor or group, but know that he will be only too happy to have you back on his games. Do you realize how asinine your comment sounds? If you can't concentrate on a three hour game it's time to hang up the mask.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 07:52pm
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I have no choice but to answer these things point for point:
Originally posted by dontcallmeblue What % do they get. Let's look at it. MiLB umpire. Rookie ball. $1800/mo. 3 months $5400. Divide that by the starting big league salary of aprox. $115k. hmmm. Can you say 4%? It goes up slightly from there, but those hardly look like apprentice wages to me. Yes, it does - you are asking for a union apprenticeship wage. Plenty of apprentices work in kitchens, construction sites, offices and schools for pitances. Why should a Rookie ball umpire with no seasoning get paid anything close to what the top 1% of all umpires make? You make me laugh. I suppose you think that a kid signed straight out of high school to a developmental league should receive a large portion of the MLB minimum? That makes as much sense. Have you not read the posts and talked to the people? While some would get blackballed from college ball for turning back games to do MiLB games, others (most?) would be blackballed from NCAA for scabbing at all, which makes it not worth the risk. You didn't earn your spot. Pretend to know what you are talking about. Plenty of NCAA umpires are ex-MiLB guys who got shafted. They would happily cross that line and take the extra coin. Some will do it because they pine for the chance to prove themselves and others will just be happy to work that level of ball again. You are fantasizing if you think that the guys who were asked to step aside care about the newbies. It's not the calls they blow, it's how they handle them. Do you think before you write? Of course it's the call they blow. That sets off the chain of response. I've seen guys make great calls but then lose it when the skipper comes out to bark. Those guys worked with me in the Minors. And you can't fire members of a recognized union without a contract either, that's not bargaining in good faith - looks like they're in a pretty good spot to me. If this ever went before binding independent arbitration, MiLB would be in trouble. They AREN'T being fired. If they choose to walk away, which they voted to do, they are abandoning their careers. If you didn't show up for work after your contract ran out, your boss has the right to replace you. Sorry, but I've been on both sides of those contracts. MiLB is not worried about arbitration. They have long argued that they pay what the market bears. The schools are full of applicants for those jobs, regardless of salary. They must know something you don't. I imagine that's a long list. "Their dream will end because they will be blackballed. Look how MLB treats some of their veterans who walked out." Get your facts straight. MLB guys walked out against a contract that had not expired and violated a no-strike clause. MiLB guys don't have a contract. That's right, they don't. So if they walk out, they are turning their backs on the dream. The MLB guys struck and felt the public's wrath. MLB had been in the driver seat with them since. AMLU is in the same spot. They are desperate to provide for their 230 members or they will be destroyed by MLB and MiLB. The MiLB lawyers are not worried about what you perceive as unfair play. They have a couple hundred minimum salary examples from MiLB players to bolster their claims. Those AMLU umpires smiled when they accepted their initial contracts and were grateful to be considered for the job. They dream of walking onto the fields in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. They will give all of that up when the ignore the assignments in late February. Do your research before you get on the Internet and spout things as fact. I did. Having been lucky enough to have been there and smart enough to know I would never make it, I can't understand why you would want to continue this argument. Unless of course you are also posting regularly on the AMLU site...[/i]
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 08:01pm
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1. MiLB umpires only get paid during the season. 2. Very few winter ball slots are open 3. With the exception of Rookie/ Short A, the MiLB season runs from April to Sept. How do you get two seasons work? - there is no decent paying ball played Oct to Feb. 4. Starting pay in MLB is ~$85-$90k (Depends on how many years of AAA/MLB fill-in one does before being called up full-time). I agree that MiLB would survive without the umpires. Over time there would be significant issues that MLB would be forced to correct, as there is going to be many openings there in 10-12 years. I wonder how MiLB would feel if the unions (AFL/CIO, Teamsters, etc) banded together with a "Don't go to the ball park" campaign ....
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