Bargaining in Good Faith?

[BigUmp56]

I'll only address this commment.

Yes, it does - you are asking for a union apprenticeship wage. Plenty of apprentices work in kitchens, construction sites, offices and schools for pitances. Why should a Rookie ball umpire with no seasoning get paid anything close to what the top 1% of all umpires make? You make me laugh.

I suppose you think that a kid signed straight out of high school to a developmental league should receive a large portion of the MLB minimum? That makes as much sense.

Why wouldn't we be using union apprenticeship wages as a measuring stick? These are union members we're talking about.

You're assertion about rookie umpires not commanding a decent percentage of MLB umpires is a little skewed when compared to what trade union apprentices make by comparison. A trade union apprentice is taken on at 20% of journeyman scale in our union. These young men and women bring absolutely no applicable job skills with them when they enter the program. When they start they are little more than material handlers and floor sweepers. Still they command an equitable percentage of scale.

The MiLB umpires are the best that Evans and Wendlestedts has to offer. They bring significant skills to their trade from day one. They don't need to be babied and pampered for 5 years as they develop their skills like a trade apprentice does. Therefore they deserve to make an equitible percentage of MLB pay.

Tim.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Tim, we have often disagreed but I am not posting this just to exacerbate old issues. You cannot compare two separate unions anymore than you can say that high school umpires in Idaho should get the same as college umpires in Florida. The WUA contract if for a very select few that have proven themselves. They are the CEOs of the umpiring world. The Rookie league guy has a trunk full of equipment and a couple weeks of schooling. They are not in the same ball park.

They do need to be babied and brought along slowly. You don't jump from Rookie to AAA no matter who you are. The average stay is almost seven years of constant hand holding and criticism.

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from another:

Dear Sir, you have a few facts in error.

1. MiLB umpires only get paid during the season.
2. Very few winter ball slots are open
3. With the exception of Rookie/ Short A, the MiLB season runs from April to Sept. How do you get two seasons work? - there is no decent paying ball played Oct to Feb.
4. Starting pay in MLB is ~$85-$90k (Depends on how many years of AAA/MLB fill-in one does before being called up full-time).

I agree that MiLB would survive without the umpires. Over time there would be significant issues that MLB would be forced to correct, as there is going to be many openings there in 10-12 years.

I wonder how MiLB would feel if the unions (AFL/CIO, Teamsters, etc) banded together with a "Don't go to the ball park" campaign ....

1) Most employees only get paid when they actually work. What is your point? Are you saying that they should get when they don't work? I hope my employees don't read this.

2) Again, what is your point about Winter slots being open? If they are available, they can accept the assignment. I simply offered that there regular season is only 3-5 months. They have other opportunities to get assignments or instruct. All of them do.

Dick Butkus used to have to sell cars during the off season. Ernie Banks sold insurance to make ends meet. They were well trained and future stars, but their bosses decided that they should be paid a certain wage and they lived with it.

You really shouldn't argue that MiLB umpires are incapable of additional income. I made more teaching during the off season than I did from my contract.

3) I believe that many of our members can shed some light on the warmner climates our country has too offer. In Texas, Arizona and Florida baseball is played year round.

4) So what is my error? That the AAA umpire who works a five month season gets 20% of the salary of an elite guy who works seven months? I hope you don't use that logic at work. "Boss, I'm here the same hours as you, yet I get only a fraction of your take home pay. That's not fair."

Are you kidding about the don't go to the ball park schtick? Now I know you never lived in rural American or worked the Appy or Gulf Coast leagues. The only entertainment in some of those small towns is the local ball club. Dime beer night is a big draw for those union boys! Did you really think that the unions would stay away from MiLB ball parks to support 230 guys who are some of the least loved in those towns? I am LMAO.

MLB will fill their vacancies the same way that the NFL and NBA do. It won't be long before we see a foreign big league umpire. We saw them during the Olympics and will see many in the upcoming Classic. They are just as good and deserve a shot. Plenty of D1 guys will gladly accept Spring Training assignments. The pros already get their talent from college, now they'll glean the best from those ranks as well. At best we are talking about two or three slots a year for the next decade. If you do the math, you'll find that it makes perfect sense to the bottom line MLB.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 08:39 PM]

[Mike Walsh]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
How many of you are guaranteed annual salary increases?

Mine's not guaranteed, but in 32 years I've received 31 annual cost of living increases. I don't get meals paid for when I'm at home, but I do get my hotel, travel and meals paid for in full when I'm on the road.

Mike

[Thump]

I am sure the MiLB guys are very informed, and know exactly what they are doing and what they are giving up.

If you think it's crap that a minor league umpire wants a cost of living increase to survive, and that since minor league baseball doesn't want to pay them anymore, then that's okay, then that is just your opinion. I have mine, you have yours. I just can't side with minor league baseball on this one. Sure i'm biased...I'M AN UMPIRE! If I can ever see umpires making things better for themselves, then i'm for it.

But he question is this. If the MiLB guys leave? How much is that worth to the game of baseball? I think a cost of living increase (which wouldn't be close to nothing out of the pocketbook of minor league baseball) is going to be worth it to keep those 230 guys working in minor league baseball. The game would still go on, but not quite as well. It would be different...and giving these guys $700 more a month seems like an awful small price to pay to keep the better umpires around and keep things uniformed and easy.

Remember...the minor league umpires aren't trying to screw over minor league baseball...it seems to be the other way around though.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Thanks Mike, so do they.

I own my own business so I don't have a boss (my wife would disagree.) It's been a long time since I received a paycheck from someone else, but I have many friends who do. One of my best friends has worked for Motorola for almost twnety years. He is guaranteed nothing. He could walk in tomorrow and be replaced by two college grads. A few years ago, he had his salary cut and was thankful to still have a job when so many were downsized. I'll never understand the union mindset that you deserve more for just doing your job. Most employees get merit raises based on performance. If they just meet expectations they get nothing. Rewarding mediocrity is what destroys most business and gives unions a bad name. There may be a few unions that actually do push their employees to perform at a higher standard. But there are an awful lot that want more for those that just count the minutes until the shift is done.

The MiLB umpires do deserve more, that is not the issue. My problem is that if they walk away without a contract, then they deserve to be replaced. No one likes an umpire, especially when they are asking for money.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Minor League baseball will survive without a union of Minor League umpires. The league controls the umpires not teh other way around- that's what bosses do.

According to their stats, a Rookie umpire makes about $1,800 a month, plus benefits, housing and per diem. A thirty five percent increase is preposterous. Corporate America averages 3-5% merit increases. That seems awfully selfish.

How do you think the poor S.O.B. that is taking in an APPY game feels about a $700 a month increase? He might spend telve hours a day in a mine and wants to have a beer and hotdog with the guys once a week. (About a buck for both on promo nights.) Do you think he'll understand why the umpire needs to make more than he does? Most Minor League perks are in small town USA. Those fans would love a $700 a month increase for waiting tables, digging ditches or seeping floors.

Don't give me any BS about MiLB being able to afford it. The fans pay for it in the end - literally and figuratively.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Thump
I don't know where you got 300% from? That seems like a rumor to me...one that really has no merit. employees more. You can't just ignore that as an employer.

The figure came from a minor league umpire. According to him the current pay schedule is close to 15,000 for AAA, 12,000 for AA and 10,000 for full time A.

The inital request according to this umpires was for 45,000; 30,000 and 25,000....no too far from 300%. If this voting member of the AMLU is correct, I'll be happy to tell him. Just let me know.

[DG]

At the current pay I don't know why anyone would want to be a minor league umpire. The odds of striking it big are better in Vegas and they have AC and eye candy in all the casinos.

[Thump]

According to their stats, a Rookie umpire makes about $1,800 a month, plus benefits, housing and per diem. A thirty five percent increase is preposterous. Corporate America averages 3-5% merit increases. That seems awfully selfish.

I think that they are looking for a cost of living increase...not a merit based increase. I don't see how that is selfish.


You are right though...average joe probably won't care about the umpire...people don't like umpires. But I AM AN UMPIRE. So I WILL care about another umpire, and that's why I wouldn't work.

Everything is more expensive now a days...EVERYTHING. Gas, food, housing, clothes...things cost more. Every year that the minor league umpires salary stays the same...their actually making less. I checked with my local high school assignor. The game fees have increased by 30% in he last 10 years. I'm not sure about college game fees, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's about the same. Why should professional umpires not be seeing the same cost of living increases?

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Did you really just think that a 300% cost of living increase is okay? That is what they are asking for after all.

[mattmets]

I think if fans had gone TEN YEARS without a raise they would gladly take their $700 a month raise. Not ten months, not 2 years. TEN YEARS.

[Thump]

JUST got off the phone with a friend of mine who was in AA last year. He didn't want me to use his name, but I called because I wanted to ask him about the 300% thing. He said they aren't asking for 300%, and said that whoever got that idea is just mistaken...he couldn't give me an exact figure, because he said that it's a bargining process and most of the guys don't even know the EXACT figures and he didn't think it was right for the figures to leave the bargining table. But he did say that it's likely they are asking for more than they'd take, because that's how bargining works. I understand that. It's like when I bought my first car, my first offer and his first offer were just posturing...and we met int he middle. But he assured me that they aren't holding out for 300%...or anything close to that. I asked him what he personally felt was fair...and he said he'd like to have 50%, but probably would be okay with something a little less.

He just said that a 100 dollar raise was only a 4% raise for him. Not enough. And I agree. I asked him if they just gave a 3% raise for the past 10 years of not getting a cost of living increase, and made it like a 30% raise, if he'd be okay with that, and he said that'd be close to what he thinks is fair, but he'd like to see something where it was put in the contract that they'd get a 2 or 3% COL increase every year, that way when the contract was over, they wouldn't have to worry about trying to bargin for another raise.

When I hear the guys talk just like he did, I KNOW that my feelings on this are right. He isn't being selfish. He isn't ignorant to what's going on. He said he just wants to make things better for the younger guys. He didn't want to go another 10 years without COL increases. I definitely can understand that.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by GarthB

The figure came from a minor league umpire. According to him the current pay schedule is close to 15,000 for AAA, 12,000 for AA and 10,000 for full time A.

The inital request according to this umpires was for 45,000; 30,000 and 25,000....no too far from 300%. If this voting member of the AMLU is correct, I'll be happy to tell him. Just let me know.

Well, even if these ARE correct numbers, which is speculation at this point, the increase is not 300%. It's 200%, 150%, and 150% respectively.

[Thump]

Let's be honest. Nobody knows the real figures. All we know for FACT is that minor league baseball offered a $100/ month raise, that would have been offset by an increase in medical insurance costs. So really...they offered nothing better than the current contract. That was rejected by the AMLU. IF THIS IS ALL THAT MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL IS GOING TO OFFER THESE GUYS, HOW CAN YOU BLAME THEM FOR NOT WORKING?

Nobody gets anywhere in this world without standing up for themselves. If 1800 a month was just good enough 10 years ago, it's not going to be good enough now. Life is too expensive now a days.

In 1995 the federal minimum wage was 4.25. For 2005 it was 5.15. (And probably will go up soon) So even your lowest level workers are making 21% more than they did 10 years ago. Inflation exists. People should make more money than they did 10 years ago, because stuff costs more than it did 10 years ago.

Like I said, if MiLB offers these guys a contract that reflects this COL increase, and they still reject it...then I may feel different. But right now, I don't see how you can't stand by their side.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

You are missing the point. No one has written that they don't deserve more. Some of us have written that they do, but if they walk out they deserve to be cut loose. Their union must be pretty horsehit if they can't bargain effetively for ten years. If I was one of the 230, I would think about reorganizing and finding a better lawyer.

Some of us have also said that while we wouldn't work those games, we don't fault those who do. If you think that it is important for those MiLB guys to make enough money to survive, why would you find fault in another umpire taking those games to support his family? There are many umpires who work solely for the extra income. There are a whole lot more who don't have to officiate for the revenue, but because of the extra income, they can afford some nicer things for their children and spouse. The contention here is that if you walk away, you can't fault those who replace you. You simply can't have it both ways.

Umpires are a hated bunch. We garner little sympathy from the general public. The major unions are aware of what is happening and this is still hidden article stuff. Their contract was void in Spetember. A decent leadership would have had a plan in place a year ago. It looks and sounds like Mr. Roberts has screwed the pooch.

Minor League umpires do deserve more, but they won't get it by walking out. MLB didn't blink when the umpires walked out before and they won't now. It was much harder to replace umpires then.