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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 01:15am
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Re: Key Word
Quote:
OMG! I don't know what you do for a living, but that is quite possibly the most assinine thing I've ever seen written on this board. What job in America isn't expendable? Every employee can be replaced - from the brain surgeon to the garbage hauler. I've already stated that I won't step forward and offer my services, but that is because I'm getting too old and I've been fortunate enough to have already been there. My objectivity is something few of you have. I've worked in the trenches for less than what they are making now. (That should tell you how long ago I did it.) We drove our own car, ate crappy food and lived in that car some days when we didn't have time to make it to the next motel. We did it because we were dreaming of what might be. We laughed at how little we made and went to sleep knowing that we would sell our grandmothers to get a shot at the bigtime. Then reality sunk in and we realized that while we were good, we weren't THAT good or didn't have the RIGHT connections. We moved along and didn't regret it. These guys are doing the same thing. They are expendable - so are you. Most coaches don't care who is umpiring as long as they get the calls right. A college umpire who steps into the AAA, AA or A game will have a new appreciation for the game, but will get the job done. We get secnd guessed on high school fields, for goodness sake, why should it be any different there. The new MiLB robots get heckled, booed and challenged just like you and me. Quit kidding yourself, the game will adapt the same way it did when the MLB umpires walked out. Those games were played and they counted!
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz 
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 01:18am
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So let's have a challenge here - how about every umpire group publicly state they will not work MiLB games?
If we truly respsect our brothers (And sister) in blue we shouldn't throw them under the bus by working MiLB games. Of course one could expect the same in return (MiLB umpires not to take over NCAA, etc). I agree with Tim C & others that MiLb could get by without AMLU umpires, at least for a time. The real question is how long would MLB stand by without taking some type of action?
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 01:38am
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Re: more on this
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dontcallmeblue
My thoughts... ...yes, MiLB umpires are "chasing a dream" but does that mean that we live in a society where you should have to make a choice between having a job you love and paying bills? Yes, many people do this. They have jobs they hate, but they pay the bills. Few have jobs they love and make enough for all of their dreams. Grow up! You all forget that minor league baseball made $500 million in revenue last year. That's half a BILLION dollars. Billion with a B. If they kicked the umps $2-3 MILLION that would most likely make a large difference in their lives. We're talking about them kicking a quarter percent of their revenue to the umpires. A QUARTER %. Again, who cares? Microsoft doesn't pay the poor schlub that sweeps the floors big bucks. That is what these umpires are, floor sweepers. They do a thankless job and are paying their dues. No one promised them a chance to advance. They were told to be good workers and if they proved themselves they would advance. That sounds a lot like most of corporate America. How many CEOS are at your company? As for those who said your lawn boy doesn't get per diem. He doesn't have to live out of a suitcase 7 months a year either. And I know, MiLB guys don't "have" to, but they've made a choice to chase a dream, don't punish them for that. Oh, boo hoo... they agreed to the terms and that comes with the territory. I know plenty of salesman that make less than what they think they should. They live in cheap hotels and see their families a couple days each month. Again, we all make decisions - if they don't want to do it, step aside - others will. If you want to dream, like artists, poets and musicians, you often live on Mac n Cheese. The IRS accepts per diems as a normal part of business travel. That's what MiLB guys do, travel for business. The IRS sets that rate by city, but nationally it's more than $60/a day. Still more of this fairness BS. Why should they pay more when they don't have to? The pro schools are full of guys who will step in. Plenty of ex-MiLB guys will work those games, because they secretly pray to be recognized as better than they were. They think, 'Maybe they'll notice me now.' Have a drink with one of them sometime. Those that were cut loose often wonder why and are pining to get back. Should that guy say no to a game he's capable of doing and work a Varsity game at the local high school out of loyalty? No f-ing way, he's got bills to pay too. Unless of course you don't think his bills are as important. I have a friend whose son just left Pepsico after four years. They worked him 70 hours a week and had him living on an airplane. He asked for a raise and they told him to hit the bricks if he didn't like the job. He did and they replaced him with a new college grad for 50% of his salary. They'll do it all again in a few years. That is how the business world operates. Wake up, DCMB - you are missing a good game! I'm with these guys. They deserve every cent. Yes, they do, but they agreed to live out of a suitcase for seven months a year. They also agreed to the pressure, per diem and lack of repsect - all for a shot at the dream. I guess in a perfect world they would all get paid $80,000 a year and their children would be movie stars and Olympic athletes with pefect teeth. Try NoDoz!
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 03:13pm
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If the market is going to set the price for an umpire, then how come it seems that ticket prices, gas prices, everything prices are going up and have for the past ten years, and so has attendance at Minor League parks, yet the salaries of Minor League Umpires has stayed the same. There is obviously something wrong here. Just because a MiLB umpire knew what the salary of a MiLB umpire was coming in, doesn't mean that it shouldn't change. Obviously if they are willing to not work because of their unfair wages, then something is wrong. I doubt we understand it as well because we aren't in their shoes. But if you use the argument "you know what you are getting into" as a reason not to get a raise, then nobody would ever get raises. To say that MiLB teams struggle to makes ends meet is a flat out lie. MiLB is making record profits. It's not about MiLB not having enough money to give the umpires more. From what I know, these guys are making about 2000 - 2500 a month, for five months. So that's around 11,000 a year for their services. Whereas Major League Umpires make 10 to 30 times that much. And how many minor league umpires get jobs in the MLB? There hasn't been one in the past couple years. It's very rare. Most of these guys are career MiLB umpires. And don't tell me that it's not a career, because spending 10 years of your life in a position IS a career these days. And then when these guys are fired, they are left with nothing. And these guys don't just advance for doing a perfect job and getting better. Most of them are awesome and do everything anybody could ever ask out of them. There just aren't any MLB jobs out there for them. I doubt these guys are asking for much. They SHOULD be making more than what I make doing D3 and D1 baseball. It's harder to get into, they are ALWAYS away from home, and frankly, watching them work and meeting some of them, they are MUCH BETTER umpires.
Umpiring for 25 years, I find it hard to believe that umpires of such a high quality could be easily replaced. Umpires are VERY important to the game. They aren't just a janitor or a kitchen worker. If they screw up, the game gets screwed up. Do you really think fans, management and players are going to like that screw ups are going to go WAY up because the new umpires won't be consistent at all? If I'm a player trying to make it to MLB, I'm going to want the best umpires possible. Same with a manager. And as a fan I don't want to see the game destroyed by bad umpiring. I've destroyed a game or two in my day and so have partners of mine, and so have a lot of high school and college umpires I know. But I have never been to a MiLB game, and seen it destroyed by the umpires. I am always amazed at how consistent they are. New guys come into town every week and they look the same. They do everything the same. Most of us amateur umpires do a REALLY good job. But I'll admit it I couldn't hold my own in a professional game. I don't have the time nor the ability to do what I see those minor league umpires do. I'm not that good. Most of the guys I work with aren't that good. And the ones that are close they are working full D1 schedules and talking to them, they wouldn't even think about working minor league games. They wouldnt want to take the huge pay cut, haha. Plus they love college baseball as do I. I wouldn't be willing to give it up. I've never worked a minor league baseball game and I admit, working one would be cool. But it wouldn't be cool if I knew I was hurting other umpires by doing so. These guys work hard, have families, and I know that some of them are really just trying to put food on their family's table and clothe their kids. Plus I don't know how I'd feel walking out onto a Minor League field with everybody knowing I wasn't a Minor League Umpire. The cool thing about working upper level baseball is that you earned it. You worked hard to get there, and you've earned the respect that level brings. If I worked while the REAL minor league umpires were striking, then I wouldn't have earned that, I'd just be taking advantage of somebody else's misfortune. I don't know how I could invite my friends and family to come watch me, when they knew that. I'd be kind of embarrassed. Maybe I'd feel different if I truly felt these guys were just being stupid, and should just work because they have an awesome job, which they do. But to me, it feels like they are REALLY being taken advantage of. I hope they continue to stand up for themselves. Nobody ever seems to think about us umpire or even care. I am sure a lot of fans and people won't care about these umpires. But not me. I AM AN UMPIRE. I am not going to turn my back on another umpire. That would just be wrong. But that is just my opinion.
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 04:01pm
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It's simple economics.
If I can find a Tank Top I like for $5.99, I'm not going to pay $8.99 for it. If I CAN'T find one I like for $5.99, I might have to pay $8.99 for it - it becomes a matter of choices - do I need the $8.99 Tank or whatever else I might spend 9 bucks on more. Same thing here. The availability of workers is greater than the demand for those workers. If they find that they cannot find people to umpire for them for the wages they are ready to pay, they would be forced to pay more. Problem is... there are PLENTY of people who would willingly and happily work these games, at the rate and benefits currently in place. The market finds it's own level. Ticket prices go up because people WILL pay them. Wages only go up if you cannot find suitable workers for the salaries you're willing to pay.
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 05:24pm
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mcrowder: You and I can agree once in a while. That was my point in multiple posts. Why should they pay more when the schools are full of eager new apprentices. Major League Baseball knows that they don't have to pay much to have umpires out there. They also know that barring a plane crash that wipes out the entire WUA, they have enough guns ready to step up for the next ten years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not certain what the Iraq comment was about. If you don't think that every job is expendable in America, then you weren't paying attention in your Civics and Economics classes. These MiLB umpires aren't martyrs - they made a choice to sacrifice riches for a dream. They deserve a better living wage, but so does half the population. Hell, I deserve more for the games I work, but the market decides what I'll earn. Some of you probably feel that you are underpaid at work. If you walked out, would your boss replace you?
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 05:25pm
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Mmmm,
Thump it is not my intent to argue your points.
I recognize that you are supportive of the MiLB umpires (as are a couple of others in the thread) and feel they need better pay for doing their jobs. I will refute a few of your points from an outsiders view: "I doubt we understand it as well because we aren't in their shoes." You of course are allowed any opinion you want but give a little credit to some that have posted to this thread. Many of the people here research all types of subjects and to say "You don't understand" is just plain wrong. "Most of these guys are career MiLB umpires." That might be the way they end up but NONE got started without a dream of going to the major leagues. There are no longer "career minor league umpires" . . . you are expected to advance or you are let go. "And then when these guys are fired, they are left with nothing." You would have to explain to me the difference between an umpire having "nothing" compared to the ever shrinking job prospects in my state for loggers, fishermen, and even farmers. When a mill closes highly trained mill workers have "nothing" . . . is there a difference here? "Umpires are VERY important to the game." Yep, if players and coaches didn't lie and cheat we wouldn't even need umpires. But the real issue is what quality do those umpires need to be. I believe that professional umpires are the best trained umpires on the planet. As a group. However, there are still different qualities of umpires as there different qualities of players. Leagues will eventually level out under whatever type umpiring they receive. They adjust. " . . . because the new umpires won't be consistent at all?" Sorry this is an emotional statement on your part. You have no idea who will work the games and if the can be consistent or not. We aren't necessarily talking about the "volunteers" that work the Little League World Series . . . we are talking about well trained (possibly professional school graduates) local umpires. You have truely high morals and the desire to protect people you respect -- I admire that. For you and socalblue1 who think it would be terrible if anyone worked games being boycotted by MiLB umpires I respect that feeling. But you know what, it is only baseball and it is business. If MiLB adminstrators think that umpires are undervalued they will reward. The flip side is also true. Thump, in closing I would like to remind you of two things: 1) Only 12.5% of Americans belong to any type labor union. In the last 50 years unionized workers have decreased in the market place from 32.3% in 1954 to the current 12.5% (source BLS.gov). Most employment that has union workers have finally started to realize that productivity is a two way street. It is a team approach that gets things done. While I am sure MiLB umpires will prevail and get a pay increase it will be less than they want. THIS YEAR. 2) Minor League teams are a business. If you owned a business wouldn't you do everything possible to create a greater value for your investment. We had a political system that decided we need NAFTA, so what about people that lost jobs that were sent outside the USA? -- or the fact that the general person that works construction is going to be far different in the future. They won't look like me and they'll speak Spanish. Yet somehow there is a feeling that since some teams make money it should automaticly be shared with the working class. That doesn't fly in the business world. Do I think that Minor League umpires are better than "local guys"? . . . you bet! Do I think they are underpaid? . . . you bet! Do I think that MiLB could function without MiLB umpires for a limited time? . . . you bet! We live in a system that worships capitalism. Every day we go to work we hope our companies do well, we all live "one paycheck from being homeless", and we all watch our shopping dollars. That is all Minor League Baseball is doing.
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 08:50pm
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When I was in pro school I was told that the average MiLB umpire spends 7 years woing it before he gives up or is cut from the roster. That doesn't sound like a career to me. I have a few friends still actively pursuing the dream and I've talked with them about this matter. I've been there so they know I understand the harsh truths of their lives. They responded no differently than the teacher, cop or transport worker who demands better wages, benefits and respect. I feel bad that they don't get more but the reality is that they are expendable and will receive only a token increase from MLB.
If you don't believe me, check for yourself. How many MiLB umpires are still in the game after seven years? Ten? It is not any more of a career than any other apprentice. You are doing the drudgery in order to prove your worth. Maybe you get noticed and maybe you get sent home with a lot of neat stories. As yourself this; when the MLB umpires went on strike, did America care? Did those games count? When they came back, were they a stronger union or was their position compromised severely?
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 09:07pm
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The difference between what the MLB guys did and the MiLB guys, is that the MLB guys were replaced with AAA umpires. And at least from what I've seen...umpiring in AA and AAA is good enough to survive MLB. The difference is not that big. But the difference between Rookie Umpires, straight out of school umpires, and college umpires...to the A, AA, and AAA guys...it's HUGE.
And how many of you are going to piss off your assignors and turn back games to work a MiLB game. I know that EVERY ONE OF MY ASSIGNORS would refuse to give me games EVER again if I did that. I wouldn't be willing to give up college umpiring to work a few games as a scab. Personally though, even if I could get away with it, I still wouldn't do it. It's just how I feel. No need to refute what I have to say, because the way I feel won't change. I can't turn my back on my friends, or a fellow umpire who I haven't even met. I know how America works. But when I see something that is wrong (getting paid $10,000 a year is wrong) then I am all for people fighting to make it better.
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 10:29pm
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Quote:
They get paid for a five month season - yes, it is paltry but they are not in it for the riches. Every MiLB umpire I know makes more in the off season than they do working the contract. Some are fortunate enough to be assigned Winter ball and some teach at the schools. Others go to college or semi pro ball and take the cash under the table. A few teach clinics independently and cash in on their luck. That is what they have after all, the luck and ability to be chosen to work Minor League Baseball. They all begin with the dream and chase it until they realize that their last name is not Wendlestedt. The average 'career' is less than seven years. Most of those guys jump to D-1 and are more than satisfied. The dream might be over, but so is the nightmare.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Wed Feb 01, 2006, 11:59pm
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I would venture to bet that each of our associations has fought long & hard to obtain reasonable game fees & better working conditions.
So let's flip the tables a bit here. How would this group feel should MiLB lock out AMLU (Or there be a strike) and: 1. 220+ of the best umpires in the country be dropped into hungry assignors laps? 2. Offer their services to the local schools / conferences, perhaps at a lower price?
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 01:12am
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Yes I am concerned about the umpires more than that game at this point. Because they are the ones being taken advantage of. Of course the game will go on no matter who the umpires are. The quality of the game though will be tarnished. And with the MiLB umpires out...there would be a black mark on MiLB. They don't want that. I am sure MLB is putting a lot of pressure on MiLB to get a deal done with the umpires. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think baseball would be DOOMED without the MiLB umpires. I just don't think things would run as smooth...and I think it's going to anger a lot of people. And it's going to be HARD for them to get angry at the umpires when they are only asking for a living wage...so I think that anger might instead be turned on MiLB. When the MLB guys didn't work...they were giving up a lot more. They were giving up THE SHOW. They were giving up a decent salary. So...it was hard for pepole to feel sympathetic for them. But...this is different. Lots of people won't care...but some people will also see that MiLB umpires are just asking for a livable wage...and that will create some symapthy. Bottom line: The players WILL notice and WILL NOT be happy. The manager WILL notice and WILL NOT be happy. The farm directors WILL notice and WILL NOT be happy. The fans WILL notice and will already know these aren't regular umpires, so they will already assume that they aren't as good, and when they mess up, they'll just be 10 times as critical. The MiLB umpire may deserve 50,000 a year. They aren't asking for that though. They just want to get by...because with the prices of everying going up...they aren't making enough to get by anymore. A decade ago it was enough...but since they haven't had a raise in 10 years...it's not enough anymore. Very few if any jobs pay less now than they did a decade ago. Why should MiLB umpiring? From what I understand, these guys don't want a huge raise...they just want to combat inflation. Can't blame them for that.
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 02:33am
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Quote:
My understanding is that the increase is in the vicinity of 300%. It may be deserved. It may not. I'm not in the position to make that decision. But at any rate, it is not just a raise to combat inflation.
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GB
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 08:38am
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I think it's likely that the current work situation with MiLB umpires - or similar negotiations in the next few years - will end the current apprenticeship system.
The owners see just another union demanding higher wages and - worst of all - benefits. Inflation in healthcare benefits is running over 20% per year. Companies are dying for ways to drop benefits, pensions, etc. As the workforce ages, these legacy costs kill the bottom line. So to avoid these costs, what do companies do? Outsource. For pro umpiring, that means hiring independent contractors through an assignor. It would start to look like high school, college, and semi-pro ball in many parts of the country. Flat fee payments, no benefits, no per diem, no travel, etc.. MLB umpires would be culled from the highest levels and would continue to run much as they do now. There's too much at stake in the bigs to have independent contractors there. But officiating at the minor league level will be very different. And, as a consequence, PBUC and the schools will die quietly and with little fanfare. I'm not saying that this is how it should be or that I would welcome these developments. I think that when you run a sport as if it were an entertainment business, and when conditions are what they are today in the business world, then certain business decisions begin to look like imperatives.
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Cheers, mb
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Thu Feb 02, 2006, 08:55am
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DCMB: Right, my point about legacy payments was simply that businesses are always looking for ways to lower costs, not that this point specifically applied to MiLB umps.
Other pro sports hire top level officials from the independent contractor/assignor system. They use HS, college, and other leagues to develop their officials for them. MLB could do the same, using a handful of evaluators to find the best. The "umpire development" model might have become too expensive to keep.
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Cheers, mb
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