Balk with continuing action

[Rich]

Let's talk some baseball.

Last night, our association watched the Jim Evans Balk video. Excellent - I highly recommend.

I came up with a good discussion play as a result of watching the video.

PLAY: R1, outs irrelevant. R1 breaks for second just as F1 starts a pickoff move to first. Surprised by R1, F1 quickly fakes to first while engaged, but almost immediately turns and throws the ball into center field trying to retire R1 at second base.

Result?

Rich

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Let's talk some baseball.

Last night, our association watched the Jim Evans Balk video. Excellent - I highly recommend.

I came up with a good discussion play as a result of watching the video.

PLAY: R1, outs irrelevant. R1 breaks for second just as F1 starts a pickoff move to first. Surprised by R1, F1 quickly fakes to first while engaged, but almost immediately turns and throws the ball into center field trying to retire R1 at second base.

I've got a balk. You said "fake" and "almost" above. Seems to me that this "almost" wasn't a "fake" to first!

P-Sz

[GarthB]

Yes, you've got a balk, but it's the word "immediately" that is key.

Was this a continuous motion so that you would wait for the play to end before enforcing the balk, or was there a definite stop after the balk and before the throw so we could rule the play dead at the time of the balk? (Pitcher doesn't throw, kill play.)

Hard to guess without seeing it. If there was enough time to yell balk, and then "Time" before the throw, I'd kill the play believing the pitcher responded to my yell of balk. Runner to second.

If not, then I've got continous action and the ball is alive .

Timing is everything.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Let's talk some baseball.

Last night, our association watched the Jim Evans Balk video. Excellent - I highly recommend.

I came up with a good discussion play as a result of watching the video.

PLAY: R1, outs irrelevant. R1 breaks for second just as F1 starts a pickoff move to first. Surprised by R1, F1 quickly fakes to first while engaged, but almost immediately turns and throws the ball into center field trying to retire R1 at second base.

Result?

Rich

Ignore the balk because R1, the only runner, advanced to second safely as a result of the play. (The batter is not considered because he did not become a batter-runner.)

R1 may advance beyond second base at his own peril.

(I suppose this is where I find out that the ball was dead as soon as the pitcher completed the fake or feint - but I'll stick with my answer because you said he turned and threw, "almost immediately.")

[Bfair]

Fed ruling: Immediate dead ball upon balk.

OBR Ruling: Balk called with play still occurring and ball should not be killed until all play stops. R1 apparently reaches second and may advance at his own risk beyond that. Balk is now ignored.

Just my opinion,

Steve
Member
EWS

[Warren Willson]

..under OBR. It is explained in the NAPBL Umpire Manual Section 6.7 Balk Mechanic p62ff.

The move by the pitcher to pick off at 1st is not a balk until the precise moment the pitcher fails to deliver the throw. In other words, the failure to throw IS the balk.

If the pitcher throws wild to any base before the umpire can call "Time" and kill the play, then his throw has immediately followed the balk, and under OBR 8.05 Penalty AR1 the ball remains alive and the runner may continue to advance beyond the base to which he would be entitled as the result of the balk at the risk of being put out.

The pitcher's throw puts "a play" in progress. If the umpire has NOT called "Time" killing play before the pitcher throws, to 2nd base in this case, then he can't call "Time" afterward until "all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield)". [NAPBL 6.7 Mechanic 8, OBR 5.10(h)]

Bottom line: Don't call "Time" until all play has ceased OR until you are certain there will be no play at all, except in the specific circumstances provide under the NAPBL interpretations.

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 28th, 2001 at 05:59 PM]

[Jim Porter]

I'm going to change my answer.

The ball was indeed dead the moment the pitcher failed to complete the delivery of the throw to first.

Jim Evans puts it this way:

"When a pitcher balks, one of three contingencies may occur: (1) the pitcher stops his delivery and retains possession of the ball, (2) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes his throw to a base, or (3) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes a pitch to the batter."

Since the pitcher did not complete delivery of his initial throw, the ball is dead at that moment, and the balk is enforced.

Even though the failure to complete the throw was the balk, the pitcher still retained possession and did not complete the throw. That means that the attempt to throw to second was a second delivery, the ball should have been ruled dead at that time, and the balk penalty enforced.

Interesting situation.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Jim Porter
I'm going to change my answer.

The ball was indeed dead the moment the pitcher failed to complete the delivery of the throw to first.

Jim Evans puts it this way:

"When a pitcher balks, one of three contingencies may occur: (1) the pitcher stops his delivery and retains possession of the ball, (2) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes his throw to a base, or (3) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes a pitch to the batter."

Since the pitcher did not complete delivery of his initial throw, the ball is dead at that moment, and the balk is enforced.

Hmmmm.... looks like I might have been dead wrong on this one (how's that for a sick pun, eh?) Curse you, Fronheiser! It appears that the mechanics at NAPBL Sect 6.7 #1 and #8 may conflict on this one.

The bottom line appears to be that the ONLY way that OBR 8.05 Penalty AR1 can apply is by a breach of OBR 8.05(c) - failure to step directly to the base. There is no other instance, given this ruling, that can result in a balk immediately followed by a wild throw to a base, and the corollary is that the ball is ALWAYS immediately dead any time the pitcher feints to 1st.

Cheers,

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Jim Porter

Even though the failure to complete the throw was the balk, the pitcher still retained possession and did not complete the throw. That means that the attempt to throw to second was a second delivery, the ball should have been ruled dead at that time, and the balk penalty enforced.

Interesting situation. [/B]

I must respectfully disagree, Jim. With R1 en route to 2nd base (play still occurring) the ball should not be killed for the exact reason shown in the situation. The defense errored beyond the balk (favoring the offended offense). Offense may achieve more than the award of the balk (at their own risk).

Who knows, R1 may be related to Warren and thinking about that cold Foster's waiting for him just keep going around 2nd, 3rd, home, the dugout, and right out to the tailgate. If you kill the ball, you blow his opportunity at that successful play. Take away the base, okay------but don't take away the Foster's or you will likely have a protest.

Just my opinion,

Steve
Member
EWS

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Jim Porter


Jim Evans puts it this way:

"When a pitcher balks, one of three contingencies may occur: (1) the pitcher stops his delivery and retains possession of the ball, (2) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes his throw to a base, or (3) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes a pitch to the batter."

Well, that's not a far leap from where I was. I was looking for a stop after the fake to kill the ball. I can accept Evans #1 above. Balk, dead ball runner to second.

Good play, Rich.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Bfair

I must respectfully disagree, Jim. With R1 en route to 2nd base (play still occurring) the ball should not be killed for the exact reason shown in the situation. The defense errored beyond the balk (favoring the offended offense). Offense may achieve more than the award of the balk (at their own risk).[/B]

It's an interesting question for discussion, but the history of baseball solves our problem.

We are accustomed to thinking of "continuing plays" as they relate to the defensive team losing the right to appeal baserunning errors. In that respect the balk to first followed by a throw to second is a continuing play.

But the balk interpretation deals with a "continuous" play. And that's not at all the same thing. Once the first movement toward the base is not completed, any movement by the pitcher thereafter is the second movement. (Nobody can dispute that. grin) A continuing event can have many movements; just look at Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, for example.

But a continuous event ends the instant a second event occurs.

Kill the ball, enforce the balk. Jim Evans, Jim Porter, and Carl Childress all agree.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
Kill the ball, enforce the balk. Jim Evans, Jim Porter, and Carl Childress all agree.

So did Warren Willson, at 7.18PM which was probably while you were still composing this reply. I believe even Garth Benham has boarded this band wagon while it was rolling.

What do you think about my conclusion that the only way for OBR 8.05 Penalty AR1 to apply is for a breach of OBR 8.05(c)?

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 28th, 2001 at 08:03 PM]

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Bfair
I must respectfully disagree, Jim. With R1 en route to 2nd base (play still occurring) the ball should not be killed for the exact reason shown in the situation. The defense errored beyond the balk (favoring the offended offense). Offense may achieve more than the award of the balk (at their own risk).

Steve

Steve,

It is not the runner en route which decides whether play continues or not. It is the question of whether or not the pitcher threw wild to a base on his pick-off attempt.

When the pitcher faked to first, he did not complete the throw. Since he did not complete the throw, he was no longer attempting to pick-off a runner. Now he is a fielder, just like all the rest. At that moment, the umpire should call, "Time," and enforce the balk penalty.

It does not matter if runners are en route or not.

The fact that the pitcher subsequently threw the ball into center field is meaningless. He was no longer a pitcher, and he was no longer attempting a pick-off.

[Bfair]

Carl Childres (quoted):
But a continuous event ends the instant a second event occurs.

Kill the ball, enforce the balk. Jim Evans, Jim Porter, and Carl Childress all agree.
__________________________________________________ ___

And what exactly do you say to the runner, who started the play by running to 2nd base and has yet to stop (unless he got there before F1 threw ball into centerfield)? He thinks he is still running since his legs are still moving. He hasn't stopped since he started. He thinks he has made a continuous effort toward 2nd as he sees that ball flying toward centerfield. He thinks he wants to continue(ous) toward 3rd base. He's already gotten what he would have received in award from the balk, but he wants more. Why do you impose yourself midstream into this on-going play?
__________________________________________________ _______

NAPBL 6.7 (quoted):

"... The ball becomes dead when the umpire calls "Time" following the call of balk, and the call of "Time" is to be made only when play stops." (my emphasis)
__________________________________________________ _________

I see the runner as initiating the immediate playing action by attempting to advance (i.e. the offense is initiating the "continuous event", as you call it) and he has not yet started a 2nd action nor completed his first action (obtained and stopped at 2nd base). You seem to be wanting to ignore that the offense is part of this playing action. In fact, the offense initiated this immediate action. Are they no longer part of this play or game?

I am not yet willing to accept this in the manner you have stated it. Can you provide the exact wording of the JEA clause (in context) that justifies killing this play midstream?

Just my opinion,

Steve
Member
EWS




[Edited by Bfair on Mar 1st, 2001 at 07:59 AM]

[Bfair]

Garth Benham (quoted):
Jim Evans puts it this way:

"When a pitcher balks, one of three contingencies may occur: (1) the pitcher stops his delivery and retains possession of the ball, (2) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes his throw to a base, or (3) the pitcher continues his delivery and completes a pitch to the batter."

Does Jim Evans say anything about the offense on this play, or has he too ignored that they are part of the playing action as Childress has?

Just my opinion,

Steve Freix
Member
EWS