Runner Missing 1st base on a force play

[LDUB]

Originally posted by UmpJordan

There is clearly a difference between the play you describe and the one I am asking about. In the play you describe there is no play being made on the runner at the time that he misses the base. In my play there is a play being made on the runner at that time. If the runner was tagged after missing the base in your play then he is clearly out for being tagged off the base. I believe that on a force play at first base if he is tagged after not having touched the base it would be an appeal play and clearly would be out. My question is if the umpire should wait for an appeal to call him out for missing first base or does a force play by definition require the runner to touch the base to be called safe?

My point was that the timing should not matter. If you would wait for an appeal on R1 missing second, then you should also wait for an appeal on the BR missing first.

[Kaliix]

I like Bob's defintion of missing a base "If the batter-runner is past first with both feet (such that he couldn't touch first without stopping and retreating) treat it as if he touched first. If there's a play being made, signal safe. If there's no play, signal nothing.

Then, if there's an appeal, rule on it."

If the ball gets to first before the batter has missed the bag and gone by with both feet, the BR is out. Read Bob's advice above for the rest.

[Gee]

As Peter said, Pro schools do teach that when a B/R fails to touch first base in passing (with both feet) he should be signaled safe simply because he beat the play. JEA teaches that mechanic and further says that it should be used at all other bases, including home, on FORCE plays only.

When a runner fails to touch any forced base in passing, he has done two things. He is assumed to have touched that base and subsequently has removed the force, PENDING APPEAL.

At first it is a whole different ballgame due to the fact that first is not a forced base.

When the B/R runs THROUGH first base and fails to touch it he must be appealed. Like at home plate, a subsequent tag of the runner is an obvious appeal and once the appeal is satisfied for the third out any runs that have previously scored on the play are disallowed due to the fact that the B/R was retired before TOUCHING first base.

If the B/R fails to touch first and ROUNDS it he has removed the "TOUCH" and a tag of the runner would not be an appeal but just an off base out and any runs that have scored are allowed. However, if that same runner leaves the immediate area he can then be appealed under OBR 7.10(d) extended, to nullify any runs that have previously scored on the play. OBR 7.10(b) cannot be used until the runner reaches his advance base. G.

[Edited by Gee on Aug 9th, 2004 at 08:55 AM]

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by Gee
As Peter said, Pro schools do teach that when a B/R fails to touch a base in passing (with both feet) he should be signaled safe simply because he beat the play. JEA teaches that mechanic and further says that it should be used at all other bases, including home, on FORCE plays only.

When a runner fails to touch any forced base in passing, he has done two things. He is assumed to have touched that base and subsequently has removed the force, PENDING APPEAL.

At first it is a whole different ballgame due to the fact that first is not a forced base.

When the B/R runs THROUGH first base and fails to touch it he must be appealed. Like at home plate, a subsequent tag of the runner is an obvious appeal and once the appeal is satisfied for the third out any runs that have previously scored on the play are disallowed due to the fact that the B/R was retired before TOUCHING first base.

If the B/R fails to touch first and ROUNDS it he has removed the "TOUCH" and a tag of the runner would not be an appeal but just an off base out and any runs that have scored are allowed. However, if that same runner leaves the immediate area he can then be appealed under OBR 7.10(d) extended, to nullify any runs that have previously scored on the play. OBR 7.10(b) cannot be used until the runner reaches his advance base. G.

[Edited by Gee on Aug 8th, 2004 at 06:19 PM]

Gee, you had me agreeing there right up to the last paragraph.

Rule or ruling for "If the B/R fails to touch first and ROUNDS it he has removed the "TOUCH" ... and any runs that have scored are allowed", please?

Did you mean 7.10(c): ["[BR] overruns ... 1stB and fails to return immediately ..."]? O/W what does missing home have to do with anything here?

And, if I am understanding you correctly, by what ruling or logic does 7.10(b) not mean exactly what it says: "[Any runner is out on appeal when ...] with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or the missed base, is tagged"? As I read that rule: if BR misses 1st and, w/BR halfway to 2nd - F3 tags the base while holding the ball and appeals that the runner missed, then BR is called out on the appeal. If there is AO/R to the contrary, I have never seen it.

--Carter

[Rich Ives]

UmpJordan wrote:

"There is clearly a difference between a missed base and a missed base with a force play being made. In a missed base situation in which the runner is not forced to that base if there was a play on the runner it would be an easy call based on a tag. However in this situation the original question was if a runner must touch the base to be called safe during a force play and a throw to the base. Should the umpire say what gets to the base first the runner or the ball or should he ask what crosses the base first? (does it matter in a force play if the base is missed?)"

Try this Approved Ruling in 4.09

"Approved Ruling: Following runners are not affected by an act of a preceding runner unless two are out. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first, and batter, Brown, hits home run inside the park. Jones fails to touch third on his way to the plate. Smith and Brown score. The defense holds the ball on third, appeals to umpire, and Jones is out. Smith's and Brown's runs count."

Note that Jones failed to touch third base - a base to which he was forced. The AR STILL requires an appeal.


Also, go read 7.10(b) again. Nowhere does it say "unless forced."


[Edited by Rich Ives on Aug 8th, 2004 at 10:04 PM]

[cowbyfan1]

I look at it this way.

If the ball and the BR arrive at about the same time and the BR foot misses first base, call him out immediately. If the runner is clearly past first I would do nothing and wait for an appeal or runner to touch first, then make the call, one way or the other.
My thinking on this is if the runner had rounded first and went to second, it is obvious he is safe at first, unless by the appeal. With a "banger" at the bag, it is easier to sell it. If the coach comes out and argues, you look him dead in the eye and say "Coach, your runner has still yet to touch first base" That would, more than likely, end the arguement right there.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
I look at it this way.

If the ball and the BR arrive at about the same time and the BR foot misses first base, call him out immediately. If the runner is clearly past first I would do nothing and wait for an appeal or runner to touch first, then make the call, one way or the other.
My thinking on this is if the runner had rounded first and went to second, it is obvious he is safe at first, unless by the appeal. With a "banger" at the bag, it is easier to sell it. If the coach comes out and argues, you look him dead in the eye and say "Coach, your runner has still yet to touch first base" That would, more than likely, end the arguement right there.

The major problems with giving no indication of whether the runner is safe or out is: 1. It tips off the defense, which is not our job and 2. It is, in essence against the rules, that imply that a runner is considered to have touched a missed base for appeal purposes. Federation appeal rules although new , give a clearer discussion of this. Still, just as you have outs and safes in baseball, you also have appeals for base running infractions , which although YOU may not like it, are still part of the game.

[Gee]

Gee, you had me agreeing there right up to the last paragraph.

1. Rule or ruling for "If the B/R fails to touch first and ROUNDS it he has removed the "TOUCH" ... and any runs that have scored are allowed", please?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Once the runner passes first and rounds it he is assumed to have touched it and has removed the force (TOUCH), pending appeal.

If the runner is then tagged out for the third out it would not be an appeal play it is simply an off base out and for that reason all previous runs would score. Why wouldn't they? The runner was not put out BEFORE reaching first.
---------------------------------------------

2. Did you mean 7.10(c): ["[BR] overruns ... 1stB and fails to return immediately ..."]? O/W what does missing home have to do with anything here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No, I meant 7.10(d). About thirty years ago MLB extended 7.10(d) to all bases, not just home, in order to make a missed base appeal the same on all bases.

OBR 7.10(b) can only be used when the bases are touched out of order. As you can plainly see in this play, the B/R failed to touch first in passing and never got to second.

That being the case, how did he touch the bases out of order, he didn't touch any? As I said, only if he touched second he then could have been appealable under 7.10(b) OR (d) Extended. Forget 7.10(c) as it is written totally wrong.
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3. And, if I am understanding you correctly, by what ruling or logic does 7.10(b) not mean exactly what it says: "[Any runner is out on appeal when ...] with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or the missed base, is tagged"? As I read that rule: if BR misses 1st and, w/BR halfway to 2nd - F3 tags the base while holding the ball and appeals that the runner missed, then BR is called out on the appeal. If there is AO/R to the contrary, I have never seen it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In your play above where the B/R misses first and is half way to second he cannot be appealed under 7.10(b) because he hasn't touched an advance base.

In order to touch the bases out of order the runner has to touch one, then miss one and then touch another, that did not happen so OBR 7.10(b) cannot be used. You have to use 7.10(d) when the runner fails to touch a base in passing and then LEAVES the immediate area (I use the cutout) of that base he can now be appealed. If he stays in the immediate area of the base he must be tagged, an appeal is not allowed, ever. G.

[cbfoulds]

Gee:
Any authority for any of the above, other than your say-so? Like a published "rule or ruling"? 'Cause, from the published rules, what you have written makes no sense.

--Carter

[Gee]

Any authority for any of the above, other than your say-so? Like a published "rule or ruling"? 'Cause, from the published rules, what you have written makes no sense.
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I wrote an article a few years ago concerning "Last Time BY" explaining the implications of a Missed Base, here is a part of that article:


".....OBR 7.10. says, "Any runner shall be called out on appeal, when (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he or a missed base is tagged."

That rule literally says that a runner has not "missed" a base, and so cannot be appealed, until he advances to and touches a base beyond the "missed" base. The reasoning is that if the runner proceeds past the missed base and doesn't reach and touch his advance base then he has effectively gained no base advantage under the rules, in terms of the actual bases acquired. He has certainly gained distance - at least temporarily - but he has not run the bases in the improper order and so he has NOT "missed" a base within the original meaning and intent of the rule. This is the true understanding of what is ADVANCING under this rule......"

So in the play you presented where the runner failed to touch first in passing and went half way to second he is not appealable under 7.10(b) because he hasn't touched his advance base and therefore is not guilty of missing a base.

Under todays rules he IS appealable due to the new ruling which extends 7.10(d) to all bases. Obviously, as explained above, you cannot use (b).

I checked your profile for an E-mail address to send you the whole article but it isn't there. If you or anybody else would like a copy, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send it to you. G.




[Edited by Gee on Aug 9th, 2004 at 03:04 PM]

[chris s]

First off, ya got a wacker at first. Safe or out doesn't mean crap.BU see's a missed bag, he does not want a ****house, so he bangs an out. Ball beat runner, right? THAT is what everybody saw. 99% of the crowd has no freaking idea what the heck an "appeal " is, why bother, bang the out sez FU. Keep it simple, huh.

Wish it was simple like that here. Too many "old guru's" do not even look into interps, call the safe and the D coach , more than likely, does not have a clue.....then we come into "coaching"..........tis a no-win situation. Tell em to appeal it, then you are "coaching",.......been there.....done that.....no win situation............

[Kaliix]

OBR 7.10. "Any runner shall be called out on appeal, when (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he or a missed base is tagged."

Gee, why are you trying to read into the sentence so much. The meaning seems clear to me. If the BR is advancing from 1st and runs over second but doesn't actually touch it, he has missed the base. He is running like he thinks he hit it and is advancing to another base. With the ball in play, if the defense astutely throws the ball to F4 at second and appeals that the runner missed the base, then the BR IS OUT! And it doesn't matter whether he has reached 3rd yet or not.

All parts of the rule have been met. The ball is still in play (the ball is thrown to F6 from the outfield and he throws to F4 at second), the BR failed to touch second while advancing to 3rd. Therefore if his missed base (2nd base)is appealed and tagged, he is out.

A missed base is a missed base.

The rule doesn't read "while advancing to and touching a base or returning to a base"... It simply talks about advancing or returning to a base and having missed a base while doing so.

The rule could legitimately read "Any runner shall be called out on appeal, when with the ball in play, while advancing to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before a missed base is tagged." I left out both "or" possibilities, but the rule still reads correctly. Missing a base is failing to touch each base in order and if appealed properly, results in an out under 7.10(b).

IMHO

Originally posted by Gee
Any authority for any of the above, other than your say-so? Like a published "rule or ruling"? 'Cause, from the published rules, what you have written makes no sense.
------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote an article a few years ago concerning "Last Time BY" explaining the implications of a Missed Base, here is a part of that article:


".....OBR 7.10. says, "Any runner shall be called out on appeal, when (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he or a missed base is tagged."

That rule literally says that a runner has not "missed" a base, and so cannot be appealed, until he advances to and touches a base beyond the "missed" base. The reasoning is that if the runner proceeds past the missed base and doesn't reach and touch his advance base then he has effectively gained no base advantage under the rules, in terms of the actual bases acquired. He has certainly gained distance - at least temporarily - but he has not run the bases in the improper order and so he has NOT "missed" a base within the original meaning and intent of the rule. This is the true understanding of what is ADVANCING under this rule......"

So in the play you presented where the runner failed to touch first in passing and went half way to second he is not appealable under 7.10(b) because he hasn't touched his advance base and therefore is not guilty of missing a base.

Under todays rules he IS appealable due to the new ruling which extends 7.10(d) to all bases. Obviously, as explained above, you cannot use (b).

I checked your profile for an E-mail address to send you the whole article but it isn't there. If you or anybody else would like a copy, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send it to you. G.




[Edited by Gee on Aug 9th, 2004 at 03:04 PM]

[Gee]

I'm not reading into the rule, I'm simply reading the words as they are written and their intended meaning.

Let's say a batter hits a gapper, touches first and then fails to touch second in passing and goes half way to third and stops.

Has he TOUCHED the bases out of order? He might have RUN the bases out of order and he might have PASSED the bases out of order but he certainly hasn't TOUCHED the bases out of order. He only touched first how can he be guilty of touching the bases out of order?

That is why he is not appealable under OBR 7.10(b) he must be tagged to get the off base out. That has been changed.

They extended 7.10(d) to all bases circa 1975 in a compromise between the Baseball Umpire Development program, led by Nick Bremigan and MLB to have a "missed base" handled the same on all bases as they are at the plate.

7.10(d) still doesn't allow an appeal the moment the runner fails to touch the base in passing, it just moves it back from touching his advance base to leaving the immediate area of the base the runner failed to touch in passing.

Once he leaves that area (I use the cutout) he can be
appealed but if he stays within that area he must be tagged for the out an appeal isn't allowed, ever. G.

[Edited by Gee on Aug 10th, 2004 at 04:35 PM]

[cbfoulds]

Gee:
I think I've figured out where our disagreement comes from and where IMHO, you "went wrong" on this one.

1.) 7.10(b) says nothing about "touching out of order", per se: the rule says runner is out if he "FAILS TO TOUCH EACH BASE IN ORDER" before being appealed for the missed base. Thus, the viewpoint of those who want to use 7.10(b) as written (in most cases - see below), and don't understand your way of saying "use (d) at all bases, not just home".

2.) HOWEVER, I found the "use 7.10(d) at all bases" ruling [never let it be said I do not admit where I have been mistaken :-))]! Reading the only reference I have to it [2004 BRD Section 10], I think I understand the point; BUT, let me suggest that you have taken the OFF INTERP. a bit too far: vis-

3.) See OFF INTERP 11-10 in the BRD: the point is that with the ball & runner both in the vicinity of the base AND THE RUNNER TRYING TO RETURN, don't allow the appeal while that playing action is going on~ the runner must be tagged [on his person]. This is where we are to "extend" 7.10(d) to all bases and poke him out [on the tagged base appeal] only if he is making no effort to return. See just above this text in BRD for citation to 7.10(b) - it is still applicable; and nowhere is there anything about needing to touch the NEXT base before he can be out on appeal for missing a previous base.

4.) Reading further in this section of BRD, there seems to be some extra confusion about the possibility of a further appeal for an advantageous "4th out" on the already-retired runner. I suspect that this is a place where the "unwritten rules" as used in MLB are causing some unintended consequences of confusion and conflict between different rules and interpretations. 'Course to quote Papa Childress: "Admittedly, 'The Book' is not the best source for the current 'rules' of professional (MLB) play."

--Carter

[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 10th, 2004 at 05:03 PM]

[Kaliix]

If you cannot tell me why the statement below is wrong then you cannot logically win this debate because the statement below is actual rule.

7.10(b)could legitimately read "Any runner shall be called out on appeal, when with the ball in play, while advancing to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before a missed base is tagged."

In your scenario from your last post, no the runner has not touched the bases out of order. He has not touched the bases in order before a missed base is tagged. The rule specifically deals with the touching and passing of a base by referring to it as a missed base!

Originally posted by Gee
I'm not reading into the rule, I'm simply reading the words as they are written and their intended meaning.

Let's say a batter hits a gapper, touches first and then fails to touch second in passing and goes half way to third and stops.

Has he TOUCHED the bases out of order? He might have RUN the bases out of order and he might have PASSED the bases out of order but he certainly hasn't TOUCHED the bases out of order. He only touched first how can he be guilty of touching the bases out of order?

That is why he is not appealable under OBR 7.10(b) he must be tagged to get the off base out. That has been changed.

They extended 7.10(d) to all bases circa 1975 in a compromise between the Baseball Umpire Development program, led by Nick Bremigan and MLB to have a "missed base" handled the same on all bases as they are at the plate.

7.10(d) still doesn't allow an appeal the moment the runner fails to touch the base in passing, it just moves it back from touching his advance base to leaving the immediate area of the base the runner failed to touch in passing.

Once he leaves that area (I use the cutout) he can be
appealed but if he stays within that area he must be tagged for the out an appeal isn't allowed, ever. G.

[Edited by Gee on Aug 10th, 2004 at 04:35 PM]