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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 01:18pm
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The following situation occured in a game I was umpiring.

Batter-Runner hits a grounder to an infielder who throws to 1st base in order to retire the runner. The throw is not in time however the runner misses 1st base and touches a point beyond the base. Should the runner be called immediately out for the bag being tagged by the fielder before the runner or does this require an appeal play on the runner for missing 1st base?
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 01:32pm
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It requires an appeal.
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 01:34pm
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Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 02:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
Well they are idiots. I don't have a rule book in front of me so I can't give you a reference. But think of it this way. R1, batter hits to F9. R1 advances to third, but steps over second base on his way by. F9 throws ball in to F6, who is standing on second base. Would you call R1 out immediatly in this situation?
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
There's nothing specific in the rules. In fact, a literal reading would make the "other senior umpires" correct because first base was tagged by the fielder before BR "touched" the base.

But in "all" (I hesitate to use that word, because someone will point out an exception), when the book refers to a runner "touching" a base, it means "touching or passing". Since BR passed first, he can't be put out by "normal" play. It must be appealed.

Here's a play from J/R: A runner is
advancing to first or home and runs by the base, missing it, and continues running for several steps, ignoring the fact that he missed the base. The fielder, now in possession of the ball, shows the ball to the umpire and
steps on the base, claiming the runner missed it: action is relaxed, so this is an appeal, and the runner is out.
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 02:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
The following situation occured in a game I was umpiring.

Batter-Runner hits a grounder to an infielder who throws to 1st base in order to retire the runner. The throw is not in time however the runner misses 1st base and touches a point beyond the base. Should the runner be called immediately out for the bag being tagged by the fielder before the runner or does this require an appeal play on the runner for missing 1st base?
Not arguing w/ anybody, but have two questions:

1.) Does the time interval make a difference:
A= BR steps over/ misses bag at same time ball arrives;
vs.
B= BR misses base & is 2 steps past when ball arives ?

2.) Do you signal safe (in either A or B, above) before F3 appeals the missed base?

Carter
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:01pm
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In your first question you ask if it matters if he is safe by the ball reaching at the same time as the runner passing over base or if the runner is clearly past the base at the time the ball arrives. There is no difference because had he touched the base at the same time the ball arrived or if he has tocuhed the base and gone 2 steps over the base then the call would be the exact same. There is no difference in how the play should be interpretated. The second question is in part what I'm trying to ask.
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
Well they are idiots. I don't have a rule book in front of me so I can't give you a reference. But think of it this way. R1, batter hits to F9. R1 advances to third, but steps over second base on his way by. F9 throws ball in to F6, who is standing on second base. Would you call R1 out immediatly in this situation?
There is clearly a difference between the play you describe and the one I am asking about. In the play you describe there is no play being made on the runner at the time that he misses the base. In my play there is a play being made on the runner at that time. If the runner was tagged after missing the base in your play then he is clearly out for being tagged off the base. I believe that on a force play at first base if he is tagged after not having touched the base it would be an appeal play and clearly would be out. My question is if the umpire should wait for an appeal to call him out for missing first base or does a force play by definition require the runner to touch the base to be called safe?
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
There's nothing specific in the rules. In fact, a literal reading would make the "other senior umpires" correct because first base was tagged by the fielder before BR "touched" the base.

But in "all" (I hesitate to use that word, because someone will point out an exception), when the book refers to a runner "touching" a base, it means "touching or passing". Since BR passed first, he can't be put out by "normal" play. It must be appealed.

Here's a play from J/R: A runner is
advancing to first or home and runs by the base, missing it, and continues running for several steps, ignoring the fact that he missed the base. The fielder, now in possession of the ball, shows the ball to the umpire and
steps on the base, claiming the runner missed it: action is relaxed, so this is an appeal, and the runner is out.
The play I speak of is different beacuse there is a play being made on the runner at the time he misses the base. In your play because it is not a force play the runner must be tagged and if he is tagged off the base then he is clearly out. The question I ask is if the runner is required to actually touch the base to occupy it and be called safe in a force play situation.
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
I believe that on a force play at first base if he is tagged after not having touched the base it would be an appeal play and clearly would be out. My question is if the umpire should wait for an appeal to call him out for missing first base or does a force play by definition require the runner to touch the base to be called safe?


Oh, crap; I thought that part of the thread title was merely surplusage.

THE PLAY ON BR @ 1st IS NOT A FORCE PLAY. See: 2.00 "Force Play".

My questions related to what I thought your issue was, namely, when BR passes, but does not touch 1st base, is he called out immediately, or is it an appeal play?

My 1st question was, does timing matter? 'Cause I can see a case being made for banging BR out immediately in A [BR & ball arrive at the same (or virtually)instant]; whereas in B [BR clearly past base when ball arrives] things are gonna look peculiar if you call him out when the ball arrives after he is 2 steps past the bag: makes good sense to require some indication by F3 that they are appealing a missed touch.

My second question applies to both A & B, presuming you DO NOT bang him out in A. A similar discussion arose this spring about proper mechanics at Home plate when the runner fails to touch home: either with or without an attempted play at the plate, do you signal SAFE, or nothing?

[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 6th, 2004 at 04:26 PM]
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
There's nothing specific in the rules. In fact, a literal reading would make the "other senior umpires" correct because first base was tagged by the fielder before BR "touched" the base.

But in "all" (I hesitate to use that word, because someone will point out an exception), when the book refers to a runner "touching" a base, it means "touching or passing". Since BR passed first, he can't be put out by "normal" play. It must be appealed.

Here's a play from J/R: A runner is
advancing to first or home and runs by the base, missing it, and continues running for several steps, ignoring the fact that he missed the base. The fielder, now in possession of the ball, shows the ball to the umpire and
steps on the base, claiming the runner missed it: action is relaxed, so this is an appeal, and the runner is out.
The play I speak of is different beacuse there is a play being made on the runner at the time he misses the base. In your play because it is not a force play the runner must be tagged and if he is tagged off the base then he is clearly out. The question I ask is if the runner is required to actually touch the base to occupy it and be called safe in a force play situation.
THe J/R play and your play are exactly the same (ignore the J/R part of the play that refers to home).

If the batter-runner is past first with both feet (such that he couldn't touch first without stopping and retreating) treat it as if he touched first. If there's a play being made, signal safe. If there's no play, signal nothing.

Then, if there's an appeal, rule on it.

With any luck, you'll get the appeal before you make your call -- someone on the defense will chime in, "the runner missed the bag" almost as soon as he's passed it.

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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:47pm
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Oh, crap; I thought that part of the thread title was merely surplusage.

THE PLAY ON BR @ 1st IS NOT A FORCE PLAY. See: 2.00 "Force Play".

My questions related to what I thought your issue was, namely, when BR passes, but does not touch 1st base, is he called out immediately, or is it an appeal play?

My 1st question was, does timing matter? 'Cause I can see a case being made for banging BR out immediately in A [BR & ball arrive at the same (or virtually)instant]; whereas in B [BR clearly past base when ball arrives] things are gonna look peculiar if you call him out when the ball arrives after he is 2 steps past the bag: makes good sense to require some indication by F3 that they are appealing a missed touch.

My second question applies to both A & B, presuming you DO NOT bang him out in A. A similar discussion arose this spring about proper mechanics at Home plate when the runner fails to touch home: either with or without an attempted play at the plate, do you signal SAFE, or nothing?

[Edited by cbfoulds on Aug 6th, 2004 at 04:26 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

I have witnessed that exact play at the plate regarding the runner missing the base on TV. The MLB umpire waits until the play is over to make a call. The catcher and runner usually both clue in and attempt "finish the play". The catcher's appeal must be made by tagging the runner and not by touching the plate. If the runner leaves the basepath and enters his dugout he clearly "abandons his efforts to score" and never touched the plate he cannot return to touch the plate and the catchers may at that time appeal the missed plate by touching the plate with the ball in his posesion before the next play.

If there is no appeal and a new play begins the run counts even though the scoring runner never touched the plate. I believe that his can be interpretated that the run scores (i.e home plate was touched)unless the play is apealed."innocent (safe) until proven guilty (out)" In the fist case at first base the late throw to the base can be seen in equivalence to a late tag at the plate. In both similar situations the umpires should react the same way and because the MLB umpires on TV always wait until the play is finished at the plate before making a call I think that the way Peter (AKA His High Holiness) deals with the play is the best way.

Jordan
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 03:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
The rules consistently treeat a missed base as requiring an appeal. If no appeal is made, the base is considered to have been touched.


7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when_
b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.


See the approved rulings in 4.09

Approved Ruling: No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter runner before he touched first base, Jones' run does not count.


Approved Ruling: Two out, bases full, batter hits home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is declared out for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.


See PLAYS A & B under 7.10(b)

PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)_he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.
PLAY.(b) Batter hits ball to shortstop who throws wild into stand (ball is dead)_batter runner misses first base but is awarded second base on the overthrow. Even though the umpire has awarded the runner second base on the overthrow, the runner must touch first base before he proceeds to second base. These are appeal plays.

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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 04:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Ives
Quote:
Originally posted by UmpJordan
Can you show me reference to a rule because other senior umpires have told me that he should be called out immediately
The rules consistently treeat a missed base as requiring an appeal. If no appeal is made, the base is considered to have been touched.


7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when_
b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.


See the approved rulings in 4.09

Approved Ruling: No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter runner before he touched first base, Jones' run does not count.


Approved Ruling: Two out, bases full, batter hits home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is declared out for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.


See PLAYS A & B under 7.10(b)

PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)_he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.
PLAY.(b) Batter hits ball to shortstop who throws wild into stand (ball is dead)_batter runner misses first base but is awarded second base on the overthrow. Even though the umpire has awarded the runner second base on the overthrow, the runner must touch first base before he proceeds to second base. These are appeal plays.

There is clearly a difference between a missed base and a missed base with a force play being made. In a missed base situation in which the runner is not forced to that base if there was a play on the runner it would be an easy call based on a tag. However in this situation the original question was if a runner must touch the base to be called safe during a force play and a throw to the base. Should the umpire say what gets to the base first the runner or the ball or should he ask what crosses the base first? (does it matter in a force play if the base is missed?)
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Old Fri Aug 06, 2004, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by His High Holiness
Quote:
Originally posted by cbfoulds

My second question applies to both A & B, presuming you DO NOT bang him out in A. A similar discussion arose this spring about proper mechanics at Home plate when the runner fails to touch home: either with or without an attempted play at the plate, do you signal SAFE, or nothing?

I assume that you saw my answer above for the play at first after you posted this.

The approved mechanic for a play at home is to make no call.


Peter
You assume correctly, and thanks for your replies.

I have always prefered not to have to make 2 different calls [ "Safe! Yes, he's Out: Missed the bag!"]on the same play, even if there is a "good reason", like this appeal situation. The ensuing "conversations" with unhappy coaches are shorter and less confusing for all the participants [incl. me].

Using the "ain't nothin' until it's something" approach on the original play posted, I certainly agree that you cannot bang BR out until there is an obvious appeal [tagging BR off-base (beyond the bag) would suffice, I think], even in my situation A.
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