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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 31, 2007, 06:43pm
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Illegal Libero Replacement

I understand the libero replacement procedure. My question is at the Level 2 volleyball clinic I attended last week, the clinician said that the first infaction is a delay of game and the second infaction is point/side out regardless if that team still had a second time out left. I can't find this anywhere in the rule or case book.

Can someone help me out here? This this a correct ruling or is it still a delay of game for the second infraction of an illegal libero replacement if a time out is still avialable?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 31, 2007, 07:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigToe
I understand the libero replacement procedure. My question is at the Level 2 volleyball clinic I attended last week, the clinician said that the first infaction is a delay of game and the second infaction is point/side out regardless if that team still had a second time out left.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going with NCAA 12.2.1.2:

Quote:
"An incorrect libero replacement is sanctioned with a team delay if the officials identify the situation before the next service contact. If identified after service contact, a position fault results."
Does that help?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 31, 2007, 10:48pm
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In NHFS, delay is also called if you notice the illegal replacement of a libero. My question is if you notice this illegal action a second time in a match, is it still a delay call or is it an automatic side out/point as my clinician said?
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Old Sat Sep 01, 2007, 08:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigToe
In NHFS, delay is also called if you notice the illegal replacement of a libero. My question is if you notice this illegal action a second time in a match, is it still a delay call or is it an automatic side out/point as my clinician said?
NCAA 6.3.3.2:

Quote:
"A team delay is sanctioned with a warning (team yellow card) on the first occasion and a penalty (team red card -- loss of rally) on any subsequent occasion during the same game, regardless of the reason."
It sounds to me like your clinician is correct.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 02, 2007, 06:10pm
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Scrapper,

Please don't confuse NFHS rules and NCAA rules. The post asked about NFHS rulings in this situation. NFHS has mandated that the penalty is unnecessary delay. Not a "first time this way, second time this other way" thing, but unnecessary delay every time.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 02, 2007, 07:54pm
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Scrapper, you do an excellent job of posting using NCAA rules. Please, however, do not respond to NFHS (High School) rules questions using NCAA rules citations. They DO NOT apply - as example, your post referencing Team Delay Warning and Team Delay Penalty. High School (NFHS) rules do NOT use Team Delay Warnings or Team Delay Penalties. Delays in NFHS are Unnecessary Delays and sanctioned with a Time-out if the team has one available and a loss of rally if the team has used both of their alloted time-outs prior to the Unnecessary Delay.

Big Toe, I have never heard the interpretation from any HS rules interpreter that you posted concerning the first illegal replacement is an Unnecessary Delay while the second one is loss of rally/point (please do not use the term side-out as that is no longer a term used in officiating volleyball).

As Felix posted, illegal libero replacement penalty is penalized with Unnecessary delay OR Illegal Alignment if it occurs when the arm is out for beckon or the whistle and beckon for service have occurred.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 03, 2007, 08:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMadera
The post asked about NFHS rulings in this situation.
No offense, but it didn't. I only use NCAA rules, so that's I all I have to go by. Sorry for any confusion. (And in my own defense, I clearly stated I was using NCAA rules in my citation, so hopefully that mitigated any confusion.)

Last edited by Scrapper1; Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:07am.
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Old Mon Sep 03, 2007, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
No offense, but it didn't. I only use NCAA rules, so that's I all I have to go by. Sorry for any confusion. (And in my own defense, I clearly stated I was using NCAA rules in my citation, so hopefully that mitigated any confusion.)
Scrapper,

In the following post...
Quote:
In NHFS, delay is also called if you notice the illegal replacement of a libero. My question is if you notice this illegal action a second time in a match, is it still a delay call or is it an automatic side out/point as my clinician said?
You replied:
Quote:
NCAA 6.3.3.2:


Quote:
"A team delay is sanctioned with a warning (team yellow card) on the first occasion and a penalty (team red card -- loss of rally) on any subsequent occasion during the same game, regardless of the reason."

It sounds to me like your clinician is correct.
The post clearly referred to NFHS rules, and you replied with an NCAA reference to back up the (incorrect) ruling by the clinician. That's what Jan and I were referring to. NFHS rules do not use the team delay sanction scale, so your answer, while correct for NCAA reference, is incorrect under NFHS rules, and provided an incorrect answer to the question posed.

Please do not use NCAA rules as the backup when the post asks for an NFHS reference. There are times we use NCAA rules as guidance when NFHS hasn't specifically addressed a situation, but in this instance, that doesn't apply.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 03, 2007, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMadera
The post clearly referred to NFHS rules,
Sorry. I went back and looked at the original post, which made no mention of which ruleset was being used. I answered with NCAA, obviously. Even after he clarified that he was talking about NFHS, I clearly labeled my reference as NCAA. This should not have caused any confusion. Sorry if it did.
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Old Tue Sep 04, 2007, 01:33pm
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Thanks to everyone that replied. I did get a chance to talk to Felix on Saturday so he clarified for me.

Scrapper1, no problem here as you clearly stated you were citing NCAA rules. In my original post, I did not state what ruleset I was speaking of.

This is my own bias but I usually assume that any rule asked about is NFHS unless stated in the message. I will be more clear in the future.

Jan, thanks for pointing out the side out thing. I will make sure to quit using that term and use the proper term now, point/loss of rally.
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Old Tue Sep 04, 2007, 05:06pm
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You have to have good knowledge...

BigToe, I knew that it was a question pertaining to NFHS rules because I know that the Level 2 Clinic is an event sponsored by the IHSA - ergo, NFHS rules apply since IHSA doesn't do NCAA stuff!

Hey, Scrapper, can I ask you a question? How is it that you are only using NCAA Rules? Are they the rules set that is being used by someone for whom you referee or coach? I am curious because usually the only ones that I know who have NCAA rules only are college coaches.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 04, 2007, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear
Hey, Scrapper, can I ask you a question? How is it that you are only using NCAA Rules?
The state where I officiate uses NCAA women's rules for HS volleyball, with some modifications. Don't ask me why, I have no idea.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 04, 2007, 05:28pm
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Now I understand! And I bet that the state is New York since I think that they are the only one that uses NCAA Volleyball rules instead of NFHS.
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NCS Volleyball Officials Coordinating Committee Recorder
CIF State Volleyball State Championships Referee (2005), Scorekeeper (2006-2007) & Libero Tracker (2010)
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