Runner out or safe

[youngump]

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Here's how I understand it and the way I reconcile the rules.

There's two things you can interfere with. You can interfere with the ball or you can interfere with the player. And the rules reference each separately.

If you run into the player who is fielding the ball, then you're going to be out because the rule protects them throughout the initial play.

If you run into the ball (or it runs into you), then we have a few variations (The third is this scenario):
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with no other fielder having a chance to make an out, you're fine unless it's intentional.
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with another fielder having a chance to make an out, you're out.
if it is deflected, you're fine unless it's intentional.
In the first two cases, the pitcher doesn't count as a fielder. (Otherwise the ball would always be past her by the time it hits you.)

[jmkupka]

young ump,

re:scenario 1;

even if the runner runs into a fielder who has drastically altered her direction of travel due to the deflected ball (and runner cannot avoid contact)?

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by strike4

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1.

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.

[strike4]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.

A close out means that if the runner had not been hit by the ball, the fielder could have caught the ball and made an out, but it would be a bang bang play.

Which situation covers my play? Would you call the runner out or safe in this play? Please cite which rule you would use to make your call.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by strike4

See page 67, rule 8.6.10a reads "The runner is out if runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2.47).

See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".

It is interference based on the definition of initial play and rule 8.6.10a.

See why I posted this question.

The rule does NOT say "interferes with a fielder's attempt..." it says "interferes with a fielder attempting..."

The interference must be with the fielder (not necessarily by contact). In the play described, the runner is merely contacted by a deflected batted ball. The fielder is not interfered with.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

8.8.6 is the ball hitting a runner who would be out except for the deflection.

8.6.10 is INT with a fielder, as in hindering movement, contact with the fielder that prevents fielding, etc.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by strike4

A close out means that if the runner had not been hit by the ball, the fielder could have caught the ball and made an out, but it would be a bang bang play.

Which situation covers my play? Would you call the runner out or safe in this play? Please cite which rule you would use to make your call.

8-8-6 is the only rule to use on this play plain and simple

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by strike4

See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

There's a difference between interfering with a fielder and interfering with the path of the ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Well I hate this part of the rule or in this case the combination of the rules. But I have to agree with strike 4 on this one. The runner would be out. By the citations that were given that fielder is still in the act of making an initial play per the defination so it is still INT. Again it gives me heart burn but as I have been told when I argued it....that's the way the rules are written.

It's not. Getting hit by the ball is one rule. Interfering with a FIELDER is a different rule.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

young ump,

re:scenario 1;

even if the runner runs into a fielder who has drastically altered her direction of travel due to the deflected ball (and runner cannot avoid contact)?

You say that like I'm forgetting something but if so I've forgotten it. As I understand it (it being the offseason and all), yes, a fielder making an initial play is protected from being interfered with even unintentionally.

[strike4]

Thanks for all the comments. They caused me to think a little deeper about the rules.

Based on some of the comments, let me add an additional thought to the question. Would it make a difference in how you ruled if the charging fielder stopped or slowed down because the runner slid between her and the ball on an initial play? Is contact necessary before you would call interference?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by strike4

Thanks for all the comments. They caused me to think a little deeper about the rules.

Based on some of the comments, let me add an additional thought to the question. Would it make a difference in how you ruled if the charging fielder stopped or slowed down because the runner slid between her and the ball on an initial play? Is contact necessary before you would call interference?

Contact is not necessary - what you describe would be interference with a fielder. Which would be illegal if the fielder was making an initial play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Contact is not necessary - what you describe would be interference with a fielder. Which would be illegal if the fielder was making an initial play.

I thought we were talking about a runner being struck by the ball they could not avoid. Is the fielder stopping really a different question? I understood strike4's last post as the same as OP, with the fielder recognizing the situation.

[strike4]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I thought we were talking about a runner being struck by the ball they could not avoid. Is the fielder stopping really a different question? I understood strike4's last post as the same as OP, with the fielder recognizing the situation.

That is correct.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by strike4

Thanks for all the comments. They caused me to think a little deeper about the rules.

Based on some of the comments, let me add an additional thought to the question. Would it make a difference in how you ruled if the charging fielder stopped or slowed down because the runner slid between her and the ball on an initial play? Is contact necessary before you would call interference?

No it would not the initial play is over once the ball was deflected.

Are you just trying to get us all to call an out no matter how legal the play is???