Runner out or safe

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by strike4

See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

How is being hit by a deflected batted ball interfering with a fielder?

[strike4]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How is being hit by a deflected batted ball interfering with a fielder?

See page 67, rule 8.6.10a reads "The runner is out if runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2.47).

See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".

It is interference based on the definition of initial play and rule 8.6.10a.

See why I posted this question.

[RKBUmp]

Then why is rule 8-8-6 in the rule book and specifically lists including the pitcher?

[strike4]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Then why is rule 8-8-6 in the rule book and specifically lists including the pitcher?

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Here's how I understand it and the way I reconcile the rules.

There's two things you can interfere with. You can interfere with the ball or you can interfere with the player. And the rules reference each separately.

If you run into the player who is fielding the ball, then you're going to be out because the rule protects them throughout the initial play.

If you run into the ball (or it runs into you), then we have a few variations (The third is this scenario):
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with no other fielder having a chance to make an out, you're fine unless it's intentional.
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with another fielder having a chance to make an out, you're out.
if it is deflected, you're fine unless it's intentional.
In the first two cases, the pitcher doesn't count as a fielder. (Otherwise the ball would always be past her by the time it hits you.)

[jmkupka]

young ump,

re:scenario 1;

even if the runner runs into a fielder who has drastically altered her direction of travel due to the deflected ball (and runner cannot avoid contact)?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

young ump,

re:scenario 1;

even if the runner runs into a fielder who has drastically altered her direction of travel due to the deflected ball (and runner cannot avoid contact)?

You say that like I'm forgetting something but if so I've forgotten it. As I understand it (it being the offseason and all), yes, a fielder making an initial play is protected from being interfered with even unintentionally.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by strike4

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1.

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.

[strike4]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.

A close out means that if the runner had not been hit by the ball, the fielder could have caught the ball and made an out, but it would be a bang bang play.

Which situation covers my play? Would you call the runner out or safe in this play? Please cite which rule you would use to make your call.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by strike4

A close out means that if the runner had not been hit by the ball, the fielder could have caught the ball and made an out, but it would be a bang bang play.

Which situation covers my play? Would you call the runner out or safe in this play? Please cite which rule you would use to make your call.

8-8-6 is the only rule to use on this play plain and simple

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

8.8.6 is the ball hitting a runner who would be out except for the deflection.

8.6.10 is INT with a fielder, as in hindering movement, contact with the fielder that prevents fielding, etc.

[Andy]

This is the "hole" between the rule about making an initial play and being contacted by a deflected batted ball.

The only thing I see, and this is not an official interp, is that the 8-6-10a says ".... interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball..."

Does that imply that there must be some sort of contact or interaction between the runner and the fielder beyond just the runner being contacted by the deflected (by the pitcher) batted ball?

[RKBUmp]

Andy, just sent you an email about this. I noticed the same thing in the rules clarifications for 8-6-10. When it discussed a deflected ball it only referenced the runner making contact with the fielder, not the ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by strike4

See page 67, rule 8.6.10a reads "The runner is out if runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2.47).

See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".

It is interference based on the definition of initial play and rule 8.6.10a.

See why I posted this question.

The rule does NOT say "interferes with a fielder's attempt..." it says "interferes with a fielder attempting..."

The interference must be with the fielder (not necessarily by contact). In the play described, the runner is merely contacted by a deflected batted ball. The fielder is not interfered with.