Runner out or safe

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by strike4

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1. See FED rules 2.47.3a and 8.8.6. Both rules could apply with differing results. Please cited rule you are using when giving your opinion.

2.47.3a is a definition to be used when applying rule, not a rule in itself.

Please cite a rule which would determine the runner to be called out.

[strike4]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

2.47.3a is a definition to be used when applying rule, not a rule in itself.

Please cite a rule which would determine the runner to be called out.

See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

[RKBUmp]

And 8-8-6 says the runner is not out if they could not avoid contact with the ball if it has been touched by any fielder, including the pitcher.

[strike4]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

And 8-8-6 says the runner is not out if they could not avoid contact with the ball if it has been touched by any fielder, including the pitcher.

Have you ever called a runner out who was running between bases and the ball hit her even though she tried to jump over it?

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by strike4

Have you ever called a runner out who was running between bases and the ball hit her even though she tried to jump over it?

Completely different situation than you originally posted. Yes, have called out plenty of runners for being hit by a batted ball before it passed an infielder. I have also had several situations where the ball was deflected and the runner had no ability to avoid the ball. The rule is pretty clear, if the ball was touched and the runner could not avoid contact they are not out.

[DaveASA/FED]

Well I hate this part of the rule or in this case the combination of the rules. But I have to agree with strike 4 on this one. The runner would be out. By the citations that were given that fielder is still in the act of making an initial play per the defination so it is still INT. Again it gives me heart burn but as I have been told when I argued it....that's the way the rules are written.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Well I hate this part of the rule or in this case the combination of the rules. But I have to agree with strike 4 on this one. The runner would be out. By the citations that were given that fielder is still in the act of making an initial play per the defination so it is still INT. Again it gives me heart burn but as I have been told when I argued it....that's the way the rules are written.

It's not. Getting hit by the ball is one rule. Interfering with a FIELDER is a different rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by strike4

See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

How is being hit by a deflected batted ball interfering with a fielder?

[strike4]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How is being hit by a deflected batted ball interfering with a fielder?

See page 67, rule 8.6.10a reads "The runner is out if runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2.47).

See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".

It is interference based on the definition of initial play and rule 8.6.10a.

See why I posted this question.

[RKBUmp]

Then why is rule 8-8-6 in the rule book and specifically lists including the pitcher?

[strike4]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Then why is rule 8-8-6 in the rule book and specifically lists including the pitcher?

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Here's how I understand it and the way I reconcile the rules.

There's two things you can interfere with. You can interfere with the ball or you can interfere with the player. And the rules reference each separately.

If you run into the player who is fielding the ball, then you're going to be out because the rule protects them throughout the initial play.

If you run into the ball (or it runs into you), then we have a few variations (The third is this scenario):
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with no other fielder having a chance to make an out, you're fine unless it's intentional.
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with another fielder having a chance to make an out, you're out.
if it is deflected, you're fine unless it's intentional.
In the first two cases, the pitcher doesn't count as a fielder. (Otherwise the ball would always be past her by the time it hits you.)

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by strike4

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1.

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by strike4

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

8.8.6 is the ball hitting a runner who would be out except for the deflection.

8.6.10 is INT with a fielder, as in hindering movement, contact with the fielder that prevents fielding, etc.

[Andy]

This is the "hole" between the rule about making an initial play and being contacted by a deflected batted ball.

The only thing I see, and this is not an official interp, is that the 8-6-10a says ".... interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball..."

Does that imply that there must be some sort of contact or interaction between the runner and the fielder beyond just the runner being contacted by the deflected (by the pitcher) batted ball?