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-   -   Runner out or safe (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/97195-runner-out-safe.html)

strike4 Wed Feb 05, 2014 09:14pm

Runner out or safe
 
R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1. See FED rules 2.47.3a and 8.8.6. Both rules could apply with differing results. Please cited rule you are using when giving your opinion.

RKBUmp Wed Feb 05, 2014 09:31pm

Based on your description of the play I dont know how a runner who is sliding into a base would be able to avoid a ball that has been deflected. I would say 8-8-6 applies and the runner is not out.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Feb 06, 2014 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921486)
R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1. See FED rules 2.47.3a and 8.8.6. Both rules could apply with differing results. Please cited rule you are using when giving your opinion.

2.47.3a is a definition to be used when applying rule, not a rule in itself.

Please cite a rule which would determine the runner to be called out.

strike4 Thu Feb 06, 2014 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 921522)
2.47.3a is a definition to be used when applying rule, not a rule in itself.

Please cite a rule which would determine the runner to be called out.


See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

RKBUmp Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:00am

And 8-8-6 says the runner is not out if they could not avoid contact with the ball if it has been touched by any fielder, including the pitcher.

CecilOne Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 921487)
Based on your description of the play I dont know how a runner who is sliding into a base would be able to avoid a ball that has been deflected. I would say 8-8-6 applies and the runner is not out.

Yep.

Dakota Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921536)
See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

How is being hit by a deflected batted ball interfering with a fielder?

strike4 Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 921537)
And 8-8-6 says the runner is not out if they could not avoid contact with the ball if it has been touched by any fielder, including the pitcher.

Have you ever called a runner out who was running between bases and the ball hit her even though she tried to jump over it?

RKBUmp Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921549)
Have you ever called a runner out who was running between bases and the ball hit her even though she tried to jump over it?


Completely different situation than you originally posted. Yes, have called out plenty of runners for being hit by a batted ball before it passed an infielder. I have also had several situations where the ball was deflected and the runner had no ability to avoid the ball. The rule is pretty clear, if the ball was touched and the runner could not avoid contact they are not out.

DaveASA/FED Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:57am

Well I hate this part of the rule or in this case the combination of the rules. But I have to agree with strike 4 on this one. The runner would be out. By the citations that were given that fielder is still in the act of making an initial play per the defination so it is still INT. Again it gives me heart burn but as I have been told when I argued it....that's the way the rules are written.

strike4 Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 921548)
How is being hit by a deflected batted ball interfering with a fielder?


See page 67, rule 8.6.10a reads "The runner is out if runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2.47).

See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".

It is interference based on the definition of initial play and rule 8.6.10a.

See why I posted this question.

RKBUmp Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:19am

Then why is rule 8-8-6 in the rule book and specifically lists including the pitcher?

strike4 Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 921557)
Then why is rule 8-8-6 in the rule book and specifically lists including the pitcher?

Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Andy Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:30am

This is the "hole" between the rule about making an initial play and being contacted by a deflected batted ball.

The only thing I see, and this is not an official interp, is that the 8-6-10a says ".... interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball..."

Does that imply that there must be some sort of contact or interaction between the runner and the fielder beyond just the runner being contacted by the deflected (by the pitcher) batted ball?

RKBUmp Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:34am

Andy, just sent you an email about this. I noticed the same thing in the rules clarifications for 8-6-10. When it discussed a deflected ball it only referenced the runner making contact with the fielder, not the ball.


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