Legal posseion of the ball for an out?

[Dakota]

If I can see possession and control by the bare hand, then the "show me the ball" analogy works. In #4, however, I cannot see control since the glove is covering the ball. The case play you reference takes away all doubt with the description of the play, "F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the ground and her hand is on top of the ball." In the case play, you see the ball is secure, just touching the ground. In the OP, perhaps the description meant she also had control, but it only said she had possession. The case play does not address a ball hidden by the glove on the ground, and I do not believe you can extrapolate it to mean that.

The difference with the "show me the ball" on a tag (in my view) is that you see the tag; you want the fielder to demonstrate she had secure control at the time of the tag, and you are using loss of the ball during the tag as evidence of no control. With the ball out of sight under the glove, you don't know whether the ball was on the ground or in the glove at the time of the "tag" (of the base), hence "show me the ball" demonstrates nothing, since it is too late. That's my view, anyway.

[BuggBob]

From My game the other night. Cather makes a snow cone catch very near the ground right over the plate, the runner steps on the glove and then the plate. The ball was in the glove, but clearly touched the ground when the runner stepped on the glove. I rule the runner out.

[bd41flpk]

(1) F3 has possession of the ball in the right hand with the palm of the hand facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Now the question comes down to is there a time consideration for when the 1st baseman picked up the ball? It would appear as if the B/R would be ruled out if the 1st baseman can then 'show/prove' that she had possession of the ball by picking it up....even if it was AFTER the B/R had passed 1st base. Agreed?

(2) F3 has the ball lodged in the forearm against the body - legal possession? IMHO - No

This one I believe was easy...no possession/control with hand/glove - so B/R is SAFE !

(3) F3 has the ball against the body with the glove pressing up against the body with the ball - legal possession? IMHO - Yes

As Dakota mentioned this could really be (3.a) and (3.b) - 3.a: ball is against body and the open glove is over the ball against the body - this would appear to be an 'OUT'.....3.b: ball is outside of glove and between glove and body - this would appear to be 'SAFE' due to no possession/control

(4) F3 has possession of the ball in the glove hand with the glove facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Same as # 1 above, if the 1st baseman can cleanly show possession of the ball (even if its AFTER the B/R crosses 1st base) then the B/R is OUT?

Comments are welcome.......

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bd41flpk

(1) F3 has possession of the ball in the right hand with the palm of the hand facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Now the question comes down to is there a time consideration for when the 1st baseman picked up the ball? It would appear as if the B/R would be ruled out if the 1st baseman can then 'show/prove' that she had possession of the ball by picking it up....even if it was AFTER the B/R had passed 1st base. Agreed? ....
(4) F3 has possession of the ball in the glove hand with the glove facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Same as # 1 above, if the 1st baseman can cleanly show possession of the ball (even if its AFTER the B/R crosses 1st base) then the B/R is OUT?

Comments are welcome.......

I disagree that the situations (1 and 4) are the same, since your ability to clearly see the ball and the player's control (or not) of it differ significantly ).

In #1, if I can clearly determine control before the runner reaches the base, fine, OUT. However, if there is a question in my mind, SAFE.

With #4, unless I see leather between the ball and the ground (which I would not be able to do if the pocket or "palm" of the glove is down), I would rule SAFE unless the glove is lifted before the runner reaches the base.

But, that's just me.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I disagree that the situations (1 and 4) are the same, since your ability to clearly see the ball and the player's control (or not) of it differ significantly ).

In #1, if I can clearly determine control before the runner reaches the base, fine, OUT. However, if there is a question in my mind, SAFE.

With #4, unless I see leather between the ball and the ground (which I would not be able to do if the pocket or "palm" of the glove is down), I would rule SAFE unless the glove is lifted before the runner reaches the base.

But, that's just me.

And I think this is the general convention, but this is probably part of the misconception.
I agree with Bretman's interpretation on all situations. The lifting of the glove/hand off of the ground before a runner reaches the base should not be a consideration. The only consideration is control. If the fielder can show me that he/she had control (even if the ball is on the ground in a bare hand or hidden by a glove turned upside-down when the runner arrives) by lifting their hand or glove off the ground without readjusting for better grip, then I have an out regardless of when the runner passed the base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

And I think this is the general convention, but this is probably part of the misconception.
I agree with Bretman's interpretation on all situations. The lifting of the glove/hand off of the ground before a runner reaches the base should not be a consideration. The only consideration is control. If the fielder can show me that he/she had control (even if the ball is on the ground in a bare hand or hidden by a glove turned upside-down when the runner arrives) by lifting their hand or glove off the ground without readjusting for better grip, then I have an out regardless of when the runner passed the base.

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

Exactly. And your question of whether or not there was control is answered by the fielder lifting their hand/glove and showing you.