Legal posseion of the ball for an out?

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I disagree that the situations (1 and 4) are the same, since your ability to clearly see the ball and the player's control (or not) of it differ significantly ).

In #1, if I can clearly determine control before the runner reaches the base, fine, OUT. However, if there is a question in my mind, SAFE.

With #4, unless I see leather between the ball and the ground (which I would not be able to do if the pocket or "palm" of the glove is down), I would rule SAFE unless the glove is lifted before the runner reaches the base.

But, that's just me.

And I think this is the general convention, but this is probably part of the misconception.
I agree with Bretman's interpretation on all situations. The lifting of the glove/hand off of the ground before a runner reaches the base should not be a consideration. The only consideration is control. If the fielder can show me that he/she had control (even if the ball is on the ground in a bare hand or hidden by a glove turned upside-down when the runner arrives) by lifting their hand or glove off the ground without readjusting for better grip, then I have an out regardless of when the runner passed the base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

And I think this is the general convention, but this is probably part of the misconception.
I agree with Bretman's interpretation on all situations. The lifting of the glove/hand off of the ground before a runner reaches the base should not be a consideration. The only consideration is control. If the fielder can show me that he/she had control (even if the ball is on the ground in a bare hand or hidden by a glove turned upside-down when the runner arrives) by lifting their hand or glove off the ground without readjusting for better grip, then I have an out regardless of when the runner passed the base.

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

Exactly. And your question of whether or not there was control is answered by the fielder lifting their hand/glove and showing you.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Exactly. And your question of whether or not there was control is answered by the fielder lifting their hand/glove and showing you.

I agree. They must show control by lifting the glove. But I am contending that they need not do that very thing BEFORE the runner gets there. They must have had control before the runner arrived, but they can demonstrate that even after the runner has passed.

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

If they can squeeze that ball and lift it straight up(and therefore demonstrate control) without readjusting the glove position or turn the glove upside down or something, then they have shown control.

[Dakota]

I don't agree. Any fielder worth his/her glove can pick up a ball with the glove without a lot of fiddling around. Covering the ball does not indicate control. Call it what you want; I call it a trap.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't agree. Any fielder worth his/her glove can pick up a ball with the glove without a lot of fiddling around. Covering the ball does not indicate control. Call it what you want; I call it a trap.

Without evidence to support there was no control while the glove/hand was on the ground, you'd be incorrect and would be in direct opposition to NFHS Casebook Case 2.9.5 Situation C which states:

2.9.5 SITUATION C: F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the
ground and her hand is on top of the ball. F3 turns her hand over so the ball is
facing upward (a) before; or (b) after the batter-runner touches first base. RULING:
In both (a) and (b) the batter-runner is out. F3 demonstrated control of the
thrown ball by turning it upward. COMMENT: Umpires must determine if the fielder
had control of the ball before the runner touched the base. This is a similar situation to the umpire asking to "see the ball" after a tag has been made. (2-9-5f)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Without evidence to support there was no control while the glove/hand was on the ground, you'd be incorrect and would be in direct opposition to NFHS Casebook Case 2.9.5 Situation C which states:

No, I wouldn't. You say glove/hand. NFHS Case Play says "hand." A glove is not a hand. Unless the player has hands like Shaq, you can see the ball, and see the grip and determine control. You can do none of those with a glove covering the ball.

And, you have the test backwards. I don't have to see evidence of lack of control. The player has to show evidence she has control.

[MD Longhorn]

I'm with Dakota pretty much across the board on this one. You have to KNOW the fielder has possession. Sitch 1 and 4 are NOT the same. In 1, you see the ball and can see if any further regripping happens. In 4, you can't see the ball. You can't GUESS an out. And as he stated, it's relatively easy to turn a trap into control without any visible movement.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

I agree. They must show control by lifting the glove. But I am contending that they need not do that very thing BEFORE the runner gets there. They must have had control before the runner arrived, but they can demonstrate that even after the runner has passed.


If they can squeeze that ball and lift it straight up(and therefore demonstrate control) without readjusting the glove position or turn the glove upside down or something, then they have shown control.

Wrong - as Tom said - they can easily gain control after the runner passed the bag and then pick it up for your out. Me - I've got the runner safe unless that glove comes up with the ball before the runner gets there.