Legal posseion of the ball for an out?

[bd41flpk]

I just wanted to get a clarification on the rule around the definition of a legal possession of the ball to declare an 'out'? My basic question surrounds the 1st baseman and what is considered 'legal possession' of the ball to determine the 'out'?

Scenario: B/R hits a ground ball to F6 who then throws to F3 for the force and the following scenarios occur (please comment on each):

(1) F3 has possession of the ball in the right hand with the palm of the hand facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

(2) F3 has the ball lodged in the forearm against the body - legal possession? IMHO - No

(3) F3 has the ball against the body with the glove pressing up against the body with the ball - legal possession? IMHO - Yes

(4) F3 has possession of the ball in the glove hand with the glove facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

(5) If I have missed any other ares of possession, please feel free to list them in your response?

My need here is of course to determine whether to rule an 'out' as the B/R crosses 1st base and did the ball beat the runner to 1st.

Thanks in advance for the review.

[Dakota]

In a trap situation (ball on the ground, or presumed to be on the ground because it is covered by the glove), the fielder needs to lift the ball prior to the runner reaching the bag. Trapped against the body by an arm, outside of the glove, etc., is the same. In #3, are you saying the ball is IN the glove, or between the outside of the glove and the body?

[BretMan]

Catching a thrown ball doesn't have the same definition and requirements of catching a batted ball for an out. So if the ball happens to be touching the ground at some point while a fielder tries to glove a throw, it doesn't necessarily mean that the fielder won't subsequently demonstrate possession and control.

On these plays, we're not looking for the rule book definition of "a catch", but rather the definition of "a tag". A tag requires that the fielder be holding the ball "securely and firmly in the hand or glove" (to paraphrase the ASA rule).

#1) If the fielder subsequently raises the ball from the ground without having to readjust her grip or bobbling the ball, then the ball was "securely and firmly held".

#2) The ball needs to be in the hand or glove, not the crook of the elbow or pressed against the body by the forearm.

#3) If pressing the glove against the body is what's keeping the ball there, the fielder would still need to demonstrate control by bringing the glove away from the body while holding the ball in the glove (similar to the ball touching the ground in #1).

#4) Same as #1.

Dakota raises a point about the fielder raising the ball up off the ground prior to the batter-runner reaching first base. This is a little bit different than my understanding. For instance, if the fielder had her bare hand wrapped around the ball, hand on top, bottom of the ball touching the ground, then the B/R touched first, then the fielder raised the ball without adjusting or losing her grip and held it secrely, would that not be an out?

I would liken that to a fielder holding the ball in her bare hand and diving toward the base to touch the top of the base with the bottom of the ball. So long as the fielder doesn't lose the secure, firm possession it's still an out.

[Tex]

Per NFHS Case book 2-9-5 Situation C, both #1 and #4 are outs.

This is the same as the umpire saying to the defensive player "Show me the ball" after a tag has been made.

[Dakota]

If I can see possession and control by the bare hand, then the "show me the ball" analogy works. In #4, however, I cannot see control since the glove is covering the ball. The case play you reference takes away all doubt with the description of the play, "F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the ground and her hand is on top of the ball." In the case play, you see the ball is secure, just touching the ground. In the OP, perhaps the description meant she also had control, but it only said she had possession. The case play does not address a ball hidden by the glove on the ground, and I do not believe you can extrapolate it to mean that.

The difference with the "show me the ball" on a tag (in my view) is that you see the tag; you want the fielder to demonstrate she had secure control at the time of the tag, and you are using loss of the ball during the tag as evidence of no control. With the ball out of sight under the glove, you don't know whether the ball was on the ground or in the glove at the time of the "tag" (of the base), hence "show me the ball" demonstrates nothing, since it is too late. That's my view, anyway.

[BuggBob]

From My game the other night. Cather makes a snow cone catch very near the ground right over the plate, the runner steps on the glove and then the plate. The ball was in the glove, but clearly touched the ground when the runner stepped on the glove. I rule the runner out.

[bd41flpk]

(1) F3 has possession of the ball in the right hand with the palm of the hand facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Now the question comes down to is there a time consideration for when the 1st baseman picked up the ball? It would appear as if the B/R would be ruled out if the 1st baseman can then 'show/prove' that she had possession of the ball by picking it up....even if it was AFTER the B/R had passed 1st base. Agreed?

(2) F3 has the ball lodged in the forearm against the body - legal possession? IMHO - No

This one I believe was easy...no possession/control with hand/glove - so B/R is SAFE !

(3) F3 has the ball against the body with the glove pressing up against the body with the ball - legal possession? IMHO - Yes

As Dakota mentioned this could really be (3.a) and (3.b) - 3.a: ball is against body and the open glove is over the ball against the body - this would appear to be an 'OUT'.....3.b: ball is outside of glove and between glove and body - this would appear to be 'SAFE' due to no possession/control

(4) F3 has possession of the ball in the glove hand with the glove facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Same as # 1 above, if the 1st baseman can cleanly show possession of the ball (even if its AFTER the B/R crosses 1st base) then the B/R is OUT?

Comments are welcome.......

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bd41flpk

(1) F3 has possession of the ball in the right hand with the palm of the hand facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Now the question comes down to is there a time consideration for when the 1st baseman picked up the ball? It would appear as if the B/R would be ruled out if the 1st baseman can then 'show/prove' that she had possession of the ball by picking it up....even if it was AFTER the B/R had passed 1st base. Agreed? ....
(4) F3 has possession of the ball in the glove hand with the glove facing down and the ball is on the ground - legal possession? IMHO - No

Same as # 1 above, if the 1st baseman can cleanly show possession of the ball (even if its AFTER the B/R crosses 1st base) then the B/R is OUT?

Comments are welcome.......

I disagree that the situations (1 and 4) are the same, since your ability to clearly see the ball and the player's control (or not) of it differ significantly ).

In #1, if I can clearly determine control before the runner reaches the base, fine, OUT. However, if there is a question in my mind, SAFE.

With #4, unless I see leather between the ball and the ground (which I would not be able to do if the pocket or "palm" of the glove is down), I would rule SAFE unless the glove is lifted before the runner reaches the base.

But, that's just me.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I disagree that the situations (1 and 4) are the same, since your ability to clearly see the ball and the player's control (or not) of it differ significantly ).

In #1, if I can clearly determine control before the runner reaches the base, fine, OUT. However, if there is a question in my mind, SAFE.

With #4, unless I see leather between the ball and the ground (which I would not be able to do if the pocket or "palm" of the glove is down), I would rule SAFE unless the glove is lifted before the runner reaches the base.

But, that's just me.

And I think this is the general convention, but this is probably part of the misconception.
I agree with Bretman's interpretation on all situations. The lifting of the glove/hand off of the ground before a runner reaches the base should not be a consideration. The only consideration is control. If the fielder can show me that he/she had control (even if the ball is on the ground in a bare hand or hidden by a glove turned upside-down when the runner arrives) by lifting their hand or glove off the ground without readjusting for better grip, then I have an out regardless of when the runner passed the base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

And I think this is the general convention, but this is probably part of the misconception.
I agree with Bretman's interpretation on all situations. The lifting of the glove/hand off of the ground before a runner reaches the base should not be a consideration. The only consideration is control. If the fielder can show me that he/she had control (even if the ball is on the ground in a bare hand or hidden by a glove turned upside-down when the runner arrives) by lifting their hand or glove off the ground without readjusting for better grip, then I have an out regardless of when the runner passed the base.

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

Exactly. And your question of whether or not there was control is answered by the fielder lifting their hand/glove and showing you.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Exactly. And your question of whether or not there was control is answered by the fielder lifting their hand/glove and showing you.

I agree. They must show control by lifting the glove. But I am contending that they need not do that very thing BEFORE the runner gets there. They must have had control before the runner arrived, but they can demonstrate that even after the runner has passed.

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, how do you determine there was no gripping as the glove is lifted? I don't know about everyone else, but being sure of an out seems like a requirement to me.

If they can squeeze that ball and lift it straight up(and therefore demonstrate control) without readjusting the glove position or turn the glove upside down or something, then they have shown control.

[Dakota]

I don't agree. Any fielder worth his/her glove can pick up a ball with the glove without a lot of fiddling around. Covering the ball does not indicate control. Call it what you want; I call it a trap.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

I agree. They must show control by lifting the glove. But I am contending that they need not do that very thing BEFORE the runner gets there. They must have had control before the runner arrived, but they can demonstrate that even after the runner has passed.


If they can squeeze that ball and lift it straight up(and therefore demonstrate control) without readjusting the glove position or turn the glove upside down or something, then they have shown control.

Wrong - as Tom said - they can easily gain control after the runner passed the bag and then pick it up for your out. Me - I've got the runner safe unless that glove comes up with the ball before the runner gets there.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't agree. Any fielder worth his/her glove can pick up a ball with the glove without a lot of fiddling around. Covering the ball does not indicate control. Call it what you want; I call it a trap.

Without evidence to support there was no control while the glove/hand was on the ground, you'd be incorrect and would be in direct opposition to NFHS Casebook Case 2.9.5 Situation C which states:

2.9.5 SITUATION C: F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the
ground and her hand is on top of the ball. F3 turns her hand over so the ball is
facing upward (a) before; or (b) after the batter-runner touches first base. RULING:
In both (a) and (b) the batter-runner is out. F3 demonstrated control of the
thrown ball by turning it upward. COMMENT: Umpires must determine if the fielder
had control of the ball before the runner touched the base. This is a similar situation to the umpire asking to "see the ball" after a tag has been made. (2-9-5f)