Handling the ball in dead ball territory

[NCASAUmp]

ASA answers needed, but open to answers for other rule sets.

From another forum:

So, we had a little controversy in our last game. We played on a field with fences like this, ASA tournament.



One of our guys hits a ball into the gap, left fielder jumps the fence and the ball stays on the in play side. He reached back into the field of play and threw the ball in from out of bounds. So, basically he jumps the fence. Stops, turns around and reaches back over the fence. Grabs the ball and throws it in. What should be the ruling on this? The blue called it a dead ball double. As, any ball that goes under the fence, or bounces over is a dead ball double. Our argument was that he got an in the park homer on it, and he should have had every right to advance because the ball was still in play, however the fielder was not. Is this a catch and carry scenario?

So the fielder jumped over the fence into DBT, grabs the ground ball and throws it back in.

What say you all?

I say ASA 8-5-K.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

ASA answers needed, but open to answers for other rule sets.

From another forum:



So the fielder jumped over the fence into DBT, grabs the ground ball and throws it back in.

What say you all?

I say ASA 8-5-K.

I don't have a rule reference but I'll take a shot anyway, he needs to get a foot completely into live ball territory to get out of dead ball territory. It's obviously not a catch and carry, for which I will refer you to the definition for catch.
I think I disagree with the call made though. Two bases from the time of the touch for intentionally carrying a ball into dead ball territory.
________
WELLBUTRIN CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

ASA answers needed, but open to answers for other rule sets.

From another forum:



So the fielder jumped over the fence into DBT, grabs the ground ball and throws it back in.

What say you all?

I say ASA 8-5-K.

...."grabs the ground ball" (which was still on the other side of the fence, the outfield side...correct Dave?)

Not as much of a far fetched sitch as it seemed when I first read it.

Speaking NCAA....
Can't find one that fits the sitch exactly, so I'll make a case for:
[B]NCAA 12.13
Notes:
5. If a player contacts dead-ball territory with any part of the body, including the foot or the entire portion of the foot that is in contact with the ground, she is considered to be out of play. No play is allowed.

EFFECT-The ball is dead. The batter and each runner are awarded one base, without liability to be put out, from the last base legally touched at the time the fielder entered dead-ball territory.

Once the fielder was in dead-ball territory, the fielder touching or catching a ball that was in live-ball territory created a dead-ball situation. Yes, a slightly "backwards" application of 12.3 and the applicable note, but I think it works here.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

...."grabs the ground ball" (which was still on the other side of the fence, the outfield side...correct Dave?)

That's my understanding of the play as well.

The way I read the sitch, the player was standing in DBT, reached into LBT and grabbed the ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

That's my understanding of the play as well.

The way I read the sitch, the player was standing in DBT, reached into LBT and grabbed the ball.

That makes it a DB. Ground ball, fly ball, fair, foul, doesn't make any difference, if the player has any part of the body on the ground in DBT when contacting the ball, it is dead.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That makes it a DB. Ground ball, fly ball, fair, foul, doesn't make any difference, if the player has any part of the body on the ground in DBT when contacting the ball, it is dead.

Correct. So would you handle this under 8-5-K? Or two base award (since the fielder isn't supposed to handle the ball in DBT)?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Correct. So would you handle this under 8-5-K? Or two base award (since the fielder isn't supposed to handle the ball in DBT)?

I would have to see it. Most players don't (and shouldn't) stop playing based on where they are standing. A lot of times, they have no idea where they are in relationship to the DB line.

Today, while watching a HS game, I saw a ball bounce off F7's knee and toward DBT. The fielder ran over and picked up the ball right off the chalk. I'm thinking, good move keeping the ball in play. And then it happened!!

With a DB line clearly marked on the player's home field and obviously in the range of the fielder's view since she was looking down at the ball she was picking up, stepped into DBT when planting to throw the ball to the infield. I was completely baffled how a player on her own field completely aware of the existence of the DB line could be so unaware of what she just did. Completely clueless. Obviously, it wasn't the fielder's intent to take the ball out of play, yet that is exactly what she did.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I would have to see it. Most players don't (and shouldn't) stop playing based on where they are standing. A lot of times, they have no idea where they are in relationship to the DB line.

Today, while watching a HS game, I saw a ball bounce off F7's knee and toward DBT. The fielder ran over and picked up the ball right off the chalk. I'm thinking, good move keeping the ball in play. And then it happened!!

With a DB line clearly marked on the player's home field and obviously in the range of the fielder's view since she was looking down at the ball she was picking up, stepped into DBT when planting to throw the ball to the infield. I was completely baffled how a player on her own field completely aware of the existence of the DB line could be so unaware of what she just did. Completely clueless. Obviously, it wasn't the fielder's intent to take the ball out of play, yet that is exactly what she did.

But in this case, the fielder hopped over the temporary fence into DBT, reached over the fence to grab the ball, and threw it back to the infield.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

ASA answers needed, but open to answers for other rule sets.

From another forum:



So the fielder jumped over the fence into DBT, grabs the ground ball and throws it back in.

What say you all?

I say ASA 8-5-K.

ASA 8-5-K is right on point....fielder threw a live ball while standing in dead ball territory.

NFHS is a bit more tricky...5-1-1i(b) defines the action, the dead ball table shows the penalty - Award all runners one base from the time the ball became dead, except when the caught ball is the third out.

I suppose that last part is referring to a catch and carry situation.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

ASA 8-5-K is right on point....fielder threw a live ball while standing in dead ball territory.

NFHS is a bit more tricky...5-1-1i(b) defines the action, the dead ball table shows the penalty - Award all runners one base from the time the ball became dead, except when the caught ball is the third out.

I suppose that last part is referring to a catch and carry situation.

Not totally on point. 8-5-K reads: "When in the judgement of the umpire, a fielder intentionally carries, kicks, pushes or throws a live ball from live ball territory."

The sitch in the OP has the fielder in dead ball territory, picking up a ball in live ball territory. But like NCAA 12.13, while not a "perfect fit", 8-5-K could work, absent any other pertinent ASA rule.
Effect would still be an award of two bases for all runners from the last base touched at the time the player in DBT touched the ball in LBT?

[IRISHMAFIA]

I, too, have a problem with the "intentional" portion since the player did not take the ball out of play intentionally. Yet, based upon the interpretation provided last year by KR, I have no problem with the 2 bases.

With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded? RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

[Andy]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Not totally on point. 8-5-K reads: "When in the judgement of the umpire, a fielder intentionally carries, kicks, pushes or throws a live ball from live ball territory."

The sitch in the OP has the fielder in dead ball territory, picking up a ball in live ball territory. But like NCAA 12.13, while not a "perfect fit", 8-5-K could work, absent any other pertinent ASA rule.
Effect would still be an award of two bases for all runners from the last base touched at the time the player in DBT touched the ball in LBT?

Now we are back to grammar and semantics....the way this is written the verbs carries, kicks, pushes, and throws are all seperate acts. You could remove any of them from the sentence and it would still be a valid statement.

...a fielder intentionally throws a live ball from DBT....

Looks to me that is exactly what happened here.

[Andy]

Never mind....reading to quickly again and only seeing what I want to see....