Federation play

[Tru_in_Blu]

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion.

Any possibility of this being ruled a timing play? My thinking is that before the appeal, a run scored. At that point in time, a ball had been called and the batter had yet to become a BR. On appeal is when she got her third strike as a result of the checked swing. So while she's standing in the batter's box, and the ball is live when she gets that news, is she entitled to run to 1B and force the defense to retire her before she gets there?


ASA: 5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a BR. On an appeal play the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.

NFHS: 9.1.1 Exception:
A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the BR before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out:
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the base;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.


NFHS item "d" above is interesting. If the batter does run and they tag her out or retire her at 1B, this does become an appeal resulting in a force out and would negate the run. If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

[ronald]

The idea with the batter did something with the bat was to indicate the pu did not think she made an attempt to hit the pitch. The bu did think so though. Sorry for the confusion.

Ron

[marvin]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

No - because the out was still made by the BR before touching first base.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by marvin

No - because the out was still made by the BR before touching first base.

Well, a run scored before the batter became a BR. After the appeal of the check swing, and because it was a dropped third strike, does the defense have to then retire the BR? If they don't and everyone walks off the field, would the run not count?

BTW, I'm not being argumentative here, I have no problem with the call. I'm just looking to cross the t's and dot the i's. My thought is the defense can't rest with just the check swing appeal. They then need to retire the [now] BR.

Ted

[Tru_in_Blu]

Let me add a bit of a twist to this: if the pitch that the batter checked her swing on had bounced into DB territory, at that time, all runners would have been awarded 1 base.

Then when PU called "play" before the next pitch, the check swing is appealed to the BU, he says "swing", batter now has strike three. Awarded run scores or not? Batter entitled to run to 1B?

Ted

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion.

Any possibility of this being ruled a timing play? My thinking is that before the appeal, a run scored. At that point in time, a ball had been called and the batter had yet to become a BR. On appeal is when she got her third strike as a result of the checked swing. So while she's standing in the batter's box, and the ball is live when she gets that news, is she entitled to run to 1B and force the defense to retire her before she gets there?


ASA: 5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a BR. On an appeal play the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.

NFHS: 9.1.1 Exception:
A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the BR before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out:
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the base;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.


NFHS item "d" above is interesting. If the batter does run and they tag her out or retire her at 1B, this does become an appeal resulting in a force out and would negate the run. If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

First of all, it was not an appeal. It was an umpire going to his partner for help on a call. Even though it is commonly called an appeal, it is not an appeal play.

Second, a BR was out for the third out before reaching 1B. No runs score.

Third, in the situation presented, why did the PU even ask his partner about the swing?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dakota

First of all, it was not an appeal. It was an umpire going to his partner for help on a call. Even though it is commonly called an appeal, it is not an appeal play.

Second, a BR was out for the third out before reaching 1B. No runs score.

Third, in the situation presented, why did the PU even ask his partner about the swing?

First of all, excellent point.

Second, the call of strike 3 and the fact that there was a dropped third strike is what made the batter a BR. But, doesn't she still need to be retired? Of the fact that she walked away from the plate, but perhaps not into DB territory, is that sufficient action to declare her out?

Third, cuz it was the right thing to do? If he denied, it would have meant at least the 1 run that scored and who knows what might have happened on another pitch.

Ted

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

...Second, the call of strike 3 and the fact that there was a dropped third strike is what made the batter a BR. But, doesn't she still need to be retired? Of the fact that she walked away from the plate, but perhaps not into DB territory, is that sufficient action to declare her out?...

Once she is ruled out, no runs score. Whether she SHOULD have been ruled out was the point of discussion. But, you asked if it was a timing play. No, because the BR was out prior to reaching 1B.

(The question about why did the PU even check with the BU was not completely serious... or was it? )

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

First of all, excellent point.

Second, the call of strike 3 and the fact that there was a dropped third strike is what made the batter a BR. But, doesn't she still need to be retired? Of the fact that she walked away from the plate, but perhaps not into DB territory, is that sufficient action to declare her out?

Third, cuz it was the right thing to do? If he denied, it would have meant at least the 1 run that scored and who knows what might have happened on another pitch.

Ted

That pitch, when strike 3 occurred, made her a BR. She does need to be retired - BUT - it is still the same pitch, until the next pitch. Just walking away from the plate is not, as I see it, sufficient to call her out.

In your play/this play - where the PU has cleaned the plate and all afterward, and we have a live ball, AND THEN we get F2 asking PU to check with a BU about a swing - chances are really good that my recollection is just what the PU called. Call that what you want - situational ethics or maybe short term memory issues.

[gumpire]

In what I believe to be the spirit of the rule....I would inform the BR that they are out & inform scorekeeper & coaches that run does not count.

Switch sides - play ball!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Steve M

That pitch, when strike 3 occurred, made her a BR. She does need to be retired - BUT - it is still the same pitch, until the next pitch. Just walking away from the plate is not, as I see it, sufficient to call her out.

In your play/this play - where the PU has cleaned the plate and all afterward, and we have a live ball, AND THEN we get F2 asking PU to check with a BU about a swing - chances are really good that my recollection is just what the PU called. Call that what you want - situational ethics or maybe short term memory issues.

"Situational ethics" - ooh...This is one I may personally struggle with. I try to eliminate any bias to teams/players/coaches and call the game as straight as I can. I don't do makeups if I figured I've blown a call - just try to get the next one right regardless of the situation.

I can see myself out behind SS on this play and a ball bounces in front of HP and comes up and hits the PU in the mask. So he's flinching and doesn't see the "obvious" swing by the batter who was fooled on the pitch. PU see the ball bound away call a ball and runners are advancing. I'm out there thinking "Dang, that was clearly a swing." If not asked, I certainly don't say anything to my partner [maybe after the game], and just stay in my position. But when asked becuase of F2's request, I give the strike sign.

That's when all opinions break loose.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Since this thread has evolved into sharing two different scenarios involving an U3K, can posters please cite the situation to which you are referring?

Thank you

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Since this thread has evolved into sharing two different scenarios involving an U3K, can posters please cite the situation to which you are referring?

Thank you

Mike, You're taking all the fun out of posting after several glasses of vino.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

"Situational ethics" - ooh...This is one I may personally struggle with. I try to eliminate any bias to teams/players/coaches and call the game as straight as I can. I don't do makeups if I figured I've blown a call - just try to get the next one right regardless of the situation.

I can see myself out behind SS on this play and a ball bounces in front of HP and comes up and hits the PU in the mask. So he's flinching and doesn't see the "obvious" swing by the batter who was fooled on the pitch. PU see the ball bound away call a ball and runners are advancing. I'm out there thinking "Dang, that was clearly a swing." If not asked, I certainly don't say anything to my partner [maybe after the game], and just stay in my position. But when asked becuase of F2's request, I give the strike sign.

That's when all opinions break loose.

Ted

I hear ya. I struggle with the same thoughts. And then I remember -
I watched an NCAA regional several years ago, with 3 umpires on the field that I knew well. In the final, in the top of the 7th with 2 outs and home team winning - and these 3 are some of the best umpires that I know - I watch a borderline inside high pitch(it was out of the strike zone), that F2 came up to grab, be balled by PU - no uncaught by F2 - B clearly went on the pitch. After sqwuaking by fans and defensive coaches, PU went to 3BU for checked swing. 3BU, and I have come to conclude correctly, judged no swing.
Over numerous adult beverages, at the hotel, the question came up about that particular checked swing. Now, PU is a short pineapple of a guy who has been to any/every school you can think of and has been recognized as a top level ump at each & every level and 3BU has done a couple of NCAA nationals - those 2 umps each have a pedigree that is above 99+% of the rest of us.
PU asked BU did she go. BU "He!! yes - but if you weren't ending the game on a called 3rd like that, neither was I." With a big smile "That was your mess, you suffer with it." all said while reaching for another adult beverage.
Players don\'t want the game to end like that, coaches do not want the game to end like that - and we umps surely do not watn the game to end like that.

The differences between this and the play we're talking about is that in the play you're talking about - it's not a game ender.

On a really semi-related note, I ended an extra inning playoff game on an illegal pitch. It was absolutely the right call to make - and the only call that wuld have been acceptable. AND I had the stones to make the right call as PU. Nobody was really happy with that ending - while not relevant, it is kinda, maybe realvant.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

PU asked BU did she go. BU "He!! yes - but if you weren't ending the game on a called 3rd like that, neither was I." With a big smile "That was your mess, you suffer with it." all said while reaching for another adult beverage.
Players don\'t want the game to end like that, coaches do not want the game to end like that - and we umps surely do not watn the game to end like that.

While I can appreciate the humor here and the point there is often an avoidance of infamy, I disagree the players or coaches don't want to end a game like this.

The pitcher WAS trying to get the batter to swing at the pitch. The catcher DID try to catch the ball. If the umpire did not verbalize ball, the catcher WOULD have attempted to make a play to retire the player to end the game. The fact that an umpire was required by NCAA to check with BU, if requested, should not be a factor in an umpire being fearful of any reprisal, degradation or criticism for simply doing what they are supposed to do.

I understand that they were probably just jerking each other around in a hospitality situation, but there are plenty of people who believe the assertion to be 100% true and acceptable to intentionally ignore a violation or a call so the came can end on a clean out or hit.