True or False - ASA

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

yeah... how does a runner fix this?

Huh, don't do it in the first place.....Like messing with you
NCB, you know that.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

Huh, don't do it in the first place.....Like messing with you
NCB, you know that.

one person gets it!! love you man!!

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

one person gets it!! love you man!!

Hey, You have a safe New Year and hope we get to call together
more this season.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here's my thoughts on the subject.

As SRW cites, the runner must touch bases in proper reverse order. And the "last time by" policy isn't accepted. So, having missed 2nd, the runner must return and touch 2nd.

Assuming he does return to touch 2nd, in order to return to 1st in proper reverse order, he must return again and retouch 1st. In effect, since he missed 2nd, the initial touch of 1st is invalid because it happened out of order.

It may be semantics, but the OP doesn't specify live ball or dead ball appeal. If a live ball appeal by tagging the runner (who is in jeopardy), I would accept the appeal as being "clear enough" in its intent. If a dead ball appeal, I believe the defense would have the opportunity during that dead ball period to reasonably explore any realisticly available appeal (in other words, I would answer the initial appeal in such a way as to suggest they might be asking the wrong question, without telling them what question to ask).

Or, I could be wrong .

[Tru_in_Blu]

From the original post, I'll assume the overthrow stayed in play and the runner advanced to 2B at his own risk.

My opinion is that the runner cannot be called out for missing second base [on appeal] since he's currently standing on it. The appeal was for missing second base, and I think that appeal should be denied. So I select "FALSE" to the original post.

However, if the appeal was that the runner did not correctly tag up at 1B, I think the runner should be called out.

If an infielder with the ball ran over to the runner standing on second base and tagged him, I'd have to ask for the specific infraction being appealed.

I'm not familiar with the last pass concept. A more obvious [but similarly egregious] offense would be if the runner crossed the middle of the diamond from around 3B and went directly to 1B [almost via the pitcher's plate]. But again, appealing the missing of 2B when he's standing on it seems hinkey to me.

And, if there was a runner at 3B at the start of all this, and that runner properly tagged and scored, the run would count as the appeal would be considered as a timing play.

Ted

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm not familiar with the last pass concept.
Ted

"Last time by" is a baseball concept. If the OP happened in a baseball game the runner would not be out because he touched 2B on the last time he ran to it. Touching a base on your last time by that base corrects any baserunning error you made at that base. As we have seen this only applies in baseball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

To start, this is a question on the 2009 ASA test. There is a lot to be desired in the wording as many parameters which could affect the final ruling are not given. For example, in ASA an "overthrow" is a ball which leaves playable territory, but we are not told where the runner was when the throw was released. Nor does it state whether the runner was on 2B before or after an umpire may have made an award. Therefore, let's look at it both ways.

One out, runner on 1B. B hits a long fly ball to LF. R1 is between 2B & 3B when the ball is caught. R1 returns to 1B, but misses 2B along the way. The ball is overthrown at 1B allowing R1 to now advance to 2B. The defense appeals that R1 should be out for missing 2B on the way back to 1B even though R1 is now standing on 2B. The umpire rules R1 out on appeal.

Assume: Between 2&3 when throw released that goes out of play and no award made at the time.

R1 must be given the opportunity to complete baserunning responsibilities. If the runner makes an effort to return to 1B after the ball is declared dead, it must be allowed and no appeal is available. R1 is awarded home.

Assume: Between 1&2 when throw released that goes out of play and no award made at the time.

Same as above, but R1 is awarded 3B

Assume: Either of above and runner makes no effort to return to 1B when the ball is declared dead.

R1 is standing on 2B. IMO, there is no appeal available at 2B. However, if the defense is alert enough, an appeal is still available at 1B. In this scenario, once the umpire hesitates and presents the award, this is the point where the appeal is available.

Assume: Ball stays in play.

R1 standing on 2B cannot be ruled out for missing the base on which he is standing, but the appeal at 1B is still available.

ASA: The given answer (which I question) is True. My argument: Given the info provided, if you call the runner out for missing 2B, you have errored. If I'm the coach and the umpire tells me the runner missed the base on the way back to 1st, I'm going to agree and then tell the umpire that is why the runner returned to 2B, to touch the missed base. Of course, if the defense appeals 1B left too soon, the runner is out, but that is not the appeal at hand.

[greymule]

[In OBR] Touching a base on your last time by that base corrects any baserunning error you made at that base.

Except a "gross miss."

I think we all agree that the runner in the OP is liable to be called out on appeal. The question is, For what? I'm leaning toward "not legally retouching 1B after the catch."

After all, if in the OP everything remained the same except that R1 retreated almost all the way back to 1B but then, without touching 1B, returned to 2B to correct his error, he would be considered to have touched 2B but would not have retouched 1B. Why would retouching 1B prevent him from correcting his error at 2B?

But ASA may contend that there is no legal retouch of 1B until 2B has been retouched on the return. Therefore, in the OP, even though R1 went back and touched 1B, he never legally retouched it.

Incidentally, this is all just surmise on my part. I have no idea whether ASA has thought this situation out to any degree. I can see, though, why OBR observes the principle of "last time by," since it renders all these questions moot.

[UmpireErnie]

So maybe the key "take away" point is that for returning to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball the "tag up" cannot legally happen until all the other bases the runner needed to touch on the way back are in fact legally touched. Hence the appeal is valid but probably for a different reason than the defense is going to be verbalizing.

My question now is, how picky are you going to be about how the defense phrases the appeal? They are not "guessing", they know a baserunning error has occured, but they are not rule book lawyers; we are. IMO, its enough that the offense knows she missed the base, and why she had to touch it.

Coach: "Blue I want to appeal that runner missed 2B!"
Me: "When was that coach?"
Coach: "On her way to tag up at 1B."
Me: "And why did she have to go back to 1B?"
Coach: (Looking puzzled at this point but still swinging) "Um, becuase she left 1B before the ball was caught?"
Me: (So proud of this coach that I am not even bothering to correct the Coach's verbage about caught vs. first touched): "Yes, you are correct Coach! Appeal granted, OUT!"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

So maybe the key "take away" point is that for returning to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball the "tag up" cannot legally happen until all the other bases the runner needed to touch on the way back are in fact legally touched. Hence the appeal is valid but probably for a different reason than the defense is going to be verbalizing.

My question now is, how picky are you going to be about how the defense phrases the appeal? They are not "guessing", they know a baserunning error has occured, but they are not rule book lawyers; we are. IMO, its enough that the offense knows she missed the base, and why she had to touch it.

Coach: "Blue I want to appeal that runner missed 2B!"
Me: "When was that coach?"
Coach: "On her way to tag up at 1B."
Me: "And why did she have to go back to 1B?"
Coach: (Looking puzzled at this point but still swinging) "Um, becuase she left 1B before the ball was caught?"
Me: (So proud of this coach that I am not even bothering to correct the Coach's verbage about caught vs. first touched): "Yes, you are correct Coach! Appeal granted, OUT!"

Well, while I have been known to give the coach a second or two to think about it, I'm not doing all the thinking and work for the coach. And even though I want one of my 39 (you guys that need 42 or more are slackers! ), the coach is going to have to make the proper appeal.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by greymule

I think we all agree that the runner in the OP is liable to be called out on appeal. The question is, For what? I'm leaning toward "not legally retouching 1B after the catch."

I agree with this. I think you'd be hard pressed to call a runner out for missing 2nd when she is standing on the bag.

I can see, though, why OBR observes the principle of "last time by," since it renders all these questions moot.

I agree with this as well...I just wish OBR actually included some of these interpretations directly in the rules or in an official, widely available case book.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, this is a question on the 2009 ASA test. There is a lot to be desired in the wording as many parameters which could affect the final ruling are not given. For example, in ASA an "overthrow" is a ball which leaves playable territory,

Not true. I've seen that term used both ways... and only until recently if they mean that the ball went into DBT, they'll tell you. "Overthrown" now implies the ball stays in playable territory.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...but we are not told where the runner was when the throw was released. Nor does it state whether the runner was on 2B before or after an umpire may have made an award.

This is irrelevant - not part of the play, nor is the info needed to complete the exercise.

I agree with you, Mike. There is not enough information given to know what to do after the written play is completed. But as you know, ASA doesn't care about the rest of the story when these questions are written. They want you to take it "literal and linear."

I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'?

The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal.

JMHO.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Not true. I've seen that term used both ways... and only until recently if they mean that the ball went into DBT, they'll tell you. "Overthrown" now implies the ball stays in playable territory.

The ASA definition of an overthrow is a thrown ball which has entered DBT or become blocked. By rule, the ball is dead at this point.

This is irrelevant - not part of the play, nor is the info needed to complete the exercise.

It is as it would pertain as to why the runner ended up on 2B. If it was an awarded base, then the runner cannot return to retouch 1B at this point (8.5.G.Effect). If it was not an awarded base and the umpire declared a dead ball, the runner may go back and retouch 1B.

I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'?

Now we are back to when the ball became dead. For all we know, the runner could have reached 2B prior to the ball entering DBT. Even so, the runner still must be given the opportunity to finish their assignments prior to making any award and accepting any appeal. We could also have a situation where maybe a coach was on the ball and knew what had to be done and directed the runner to properly complete their assignment.

All that aside, I still do not have a runner out on an appeal at 2B. 1B, yes, if the team makes such an appeal.

The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal.

JMHO.

And a valid opinion at that. However, if that was the "intent", the scenario should have been worded to bring the umpire to that point.

The reason I may seem anal about this is there are umpires that will bring this interpretation and start ruling runners out without taking into consideration all the parameters and how the rule books addresses each one. If you take this question and given response at face value, you have just about made it impossible for a runner to ever return to a missed base once they have passed it.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The ASA definition of an overthrow is a thrown ball which has entered DBT or become blocked. By rule, the ball is dead at this point.

Ding ding. I forgot about that. I stand corrected on my 'overthrown' statement above.

The rest of your argument/position now makes sense.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SRW

The rest of your argument/position now makes sense.

Given a rule test discussion.