True or False - ASA

[IRISHMAFIA]

To start, this is a question on the 2009 ASA test. There is a lot to be desired in the wording as many parameters which could affect the final ruling are not given. For example, in ASA an "overthrow" is a ball which leaves playable territory, but we are not told where the runner was when the throw was released. Nor does it state whether the runner was on 2B before or after an umpire may have made an award. Therefore, let's look at it both ways.

One out, runner on 1B. B hits a long fly ball to LF. R1 is between 2B & 3B when the ball is caught. R1 returns to 1B, but misses 2B along the way. The ball is overthrown at 1B allowing R1 to now advance to 2B. The defense appeals that R1 should be out for missing 2B on the way back to 1B even though R1 is now standing on 2B. The umpire rules R1 out on appeal.

Assume: Between 2&3 when throw released that goes out of play and no award made at the time.

R1 must be given the opportunity to complete baserunning responsibilities. If the runner makes an effort to return to 1B after the ball is declared dead, it must be allowed and no appeal is available. R1 is awarded home.

Assume: Between 1&2 when throw released that goes out of play and no award made at the time.

Same as above, but R1 is awarded 3B

Assume: Either of above and runner makes no effort to return to 1B when the ball is declared dead.

R1 is standing on 2B. IMO, there is no appeal available at 2B. However, if the defense is alert enough, an appeal is still available at 1B. In this scenario, once the umpire hesitates and presents the award, this is the point where the appeal is available.

Assume: Ball stays in play.

R1 standing on 2B cannot be ruled out for missing the base on which he is standing, but the appeal at 1B is still available.

ASA: The given answer (which I question) is True. My argument: Given the info provided, if you call the runner out for missing 2B, you have errored. If I'm the coach and the umpire tells me the runner missed the base on the way back to 1st, I'm going to agree and then tell the umpire that is why the runner returned to 2B, to touch the missed base. Of course, if the defense appeals 1B left too soon, the runner is out, but that is not the appeal at hand.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, this is a question on the 2009 ASA test. There is a lot to be desired in the wording as many parameters which could affect the final ruling are not given. For example, in ASA an "overthrow" is a ball which leaves playable territory,

Not true. I've seen that term used both ways... and only until recently if they mean that the ball went into DBT, they'll tell you. "Overthrown" now implies the ball stays in playable territory.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...but we are not told where the runner was when the throw was released. Nor does it state whether the runner was on 2B before or after an umpire may have made an award.

This is irrelevant - not part of the play, nor is the info needed to complete the exercise.

I agree with you, Mike. There is not enough information given to know what to do after the written play is completed. But as you know, ASA doesn't care about the rest of the story when these questions are written. They want you to take it "literal and linear."

I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'?

The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal.

JMHO.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Not true. I've seen that term used both ways... and only until recently if they mean that the ball went into DBT, they'll tell you. "Overthrown" now implies the ball stays in playable territory.

The ASA definition of an overthrow is a thrown ball which has entered DBT or become blocked. By rule, the ball is dead at this point.

This is irrelevant - not part of the play, nor is the info needed to complete the exercise.

It is as it would pertain as to why the runner ended up on 2B. If it was an awarded base, then the runner cannot return to retouch 1B at this point (8.5.G.Effect). If it was not an awarded base and the umpire declared a dead ball, the runner may go back and retouch 1B.

I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'?

Now we are back to when the ball became dead. For all we know, the runner could have reached 2B prior to the ball entering DBT. Even so, the runner still must be given the opportunity to finish their assignments prior to making any award and accepting any appeal. We could also have a situation where maybe a coach was on the ball and knew what had to be done and directed the runner to properly complete their assignment.

All that aside, I still do not have a runner out on an appeal at 2B. 1B, yes, if the team makes such an appeal.

The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal.

JMHO.

And a valid opinion at that. However, if that was the "intent", the scenario should have been worded to bring the umpire to that point.

The reason I may seem anal about this is there are umpires that will bring this interpretation and start ruling runners out without taking into consideration all the parameters and how the rule books addresses each one. If you take this question and given response at face value, you have just about made it impossible for a runner to ever return to a missed base once they have passed it.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The ASA definition of an overthrow is a thrown ball which has entered DBT or become blocked. By rule, the ball is dead at this point.

Ding ding. I forgot about that. I stand corrected on my 'overthrown' statement above.

The rest of your argument/position now makes sense.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SRW

The rest of your argument/position now makes sense.

Given a rule test discussion.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Per my copy of the answers to the 2009 Test, the answer is "True". The runner is out on appeal for failure to retouch 2nd base on his return. The rule reference is Rule 8;3A.

[ronald]

So, IrishMafia,

Will you have any interpretation (thinking) on this queston from the National Office for those attending the Central Atlantic Clinic in three weeks?

Thanks, Ron

[whiskers_ump]

OK, I will answer the first 5, someone answer the next, so on and on, until however many
there are.