True or False - ASA

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, this is a question on the 2009 ASA test. There is a lot to be desired in the wording as many parameters which could affect the final ruling are not given. For example, in ASA an "overthrow" is a ball which leaves playable territory,

Not true. I've seen that term used both ways... and only until recently if they mean that the ball went into DBT, they'll tell you. "Overthrown" now implies the ball stays in playable territory.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...but we are not told where the runner was when the throw was released. Nor does it state whether the runner was on 2B before or after an umpire may have made an award.

This is irrelevant - not part of the play, nor is the info needed to complete the exercise.

I agree with you, Mike. There is not enough information given to know what to do after the written play is completed. But as you know, ASA doesn't care about the rest of the story when these questions are written. They want you to take it "literal and linear."

I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'?

The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal.

JMHO.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Not true. I've seen that term used both ways... and only until recently if they mean that the ball went into DBT, they'll tell you. "Overthrown" now implies the ball stays in playable territory.

The ASA definition of an overthrow is a thrown ball which has entered DBT or become blocked. By rule, the ball is dead at this point.

This is irrelevant - not part of the play, nor is the info needed to complete the exercise.

It is as it would pertain as to why the runner ended up on 2B. If it was an awarded base, then the runner cannot return to retouch 1B at this point (8.5.G.Effect). If it was not an awarded base and the umpire declared a dead ball, the runner may go back and retouch 1B.

I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'?

Now we are back to when the ball became dead. For all we know, the runner could have reached 2B prior to the ball entering DBT. Even so, the runner still must be given the opportunity to finish their assignments prior to making any award and accepting any appeal. We could also have a situation where maybe a coach was on the ball and knew what had to be done and directed the runner to properly complete their assignment.

All that aside, I still do not have a runner out on an appeal at 2B. 1B, yes, if the team makes such an appeal.

The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal.

JMHO.

And a valid opinion at that. However, if that was the "intent", the scenario should have been worded to bring the umpire to that point.

The reason I may seem anal about this is there are umpires that will bring this interpretation and start ruling runners out without taking into consideration all the parameters and how the rule books addresses each one. If you take this question and given response at face value, you have just about made it impossible for a runner to ever return to a missed base once they have passed it.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The ASA definition of an overthrow is a thrown ball which has entered DBT or become blocked. By rule, the ball is dead at this point.

Ding ding. I forgot about that. I stand corrected on my 'overthrown' statement above.

The rest of your argument/position now makes sense.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SRW

The rest of your argument/position now makes sense.

Given a rule test discussion.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Per my copy of the answers to the 2009 Test, the answer is "True". The runner is out on appeal for failure to retouch 2nd base on his return. The rule reference is Rule 8;3A.

[ronald]

So, IrishMafia,

Will you have any interpretation (thinking) on this queston from the National Office for those attending the Central Atlantic Clinic in three weeks?

Thanks, Ron

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

So, IrishMafia,

Will you have any interpretation (thinking) on this queston from the National Office for those attending the Central Atlantic Clinic in three weeks?

Thanks, Ron

I've already addressed my concerns to the Regional UIC. I can only assume he will have something by then.

[whiskers_ump]

OK, I will answer the first 5, someone answer the next, so on and on, until however many
there are.